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Dear UrbanBaby community,

Thank you so much for being a valued member of the UrbanBaby community. We wanted to inform you that we are shutting down the site on July 6th. We are grateful for your participation and support that has helped make UrbanBaby such an important resource to parents for many years.

If you have any questions or concerns, you can email us at urbanbaby-support@cbsinteractive.com.

Thanks so much,

UrbanBaby Support

[ - ] Gotta say....DD, who had 99's on OLSAT and SB and 98 (with 99 vebal)on ERB is really just not that smart! I don't think the tests mean much. Don't think I'm a bad mom....love her and love all the more important good qualities about her...just don't think she's any smarter than any other 4 year old I know. 16 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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NY Schools 06.23.08, 06:52 PM Flag
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whatever... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:56 PM Flag
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I agree that some of the high scoring kids on all these tests are not that gifted. But some are. the ceilings are low enough that you have a harder time distinguishing the real geniuses. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:57 PM Flag
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okay. my dd, who scored a 99 on both the SB and the ERB, really is that smart -- five years later. what's your point? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 10:50 AM Flag
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I think my 98 scoring DS is just as smart as any child who has parents who read to him and talk to him and when the kid shows an interest, they help them pursue it. What I think is sad is all the kids who don't have that. Thos are they kids scoring in the 50th percentile, that's the real "at risk" kid, no matter how much or how little money their parents have. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 10:53 AM Flag
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Agreed, DH and his sister grew up in projects in Harlem, but their mom made sure they all practically lived at the library. Both got into Hunter (though she tells me that wasn't easy either for AA kids in the 1960s). It's not how much money you have, its the parental interaction. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 10:55 AM Flag
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in the 1960s, i believe admission to hunter was score-based only -- tops scorers got in. no onsite. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 10:57 AM Flag
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You are correct that there was no on-site. But MIL says that first they didn't even want to test her DD and with her DS they claimed that the scores were inaccurate and wanted him tested again. Only know what she told me. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 11:29 AM Flag
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My 99 OLSAT is very smart, but in the normal sense. I think the term "gifted" is appropriate for only those very special kids that are brilliant. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 10:57 AM Flag
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Gifted is a term that means above average in intelligence. It doesn't mean genius. Gifted means smart. And according to the DOE, studies have shown that gifted (read - smart) kids do better in a class of similar peers [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 11:39 AM Flag
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I wish, wish, wish the test was called what it actually is - academic preparedeness. Some kids are more prepared than others. All kids can learn, all kids are smart, some are just ready earlier because they've been prepped. And I don't mean prepped in a bad way, just some households are more academic, some more artistic, some more musical. They are testing school readiness, not intelligence. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 11:41 AM Flag
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OR here: ITA. There's something to be said for putting the "smarter" kids together so they can explore more material or learn faster. But high stakes testing at 4 yo is misguided, imho. Do it later on. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 11:43 AM Flag
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The gaps only widen between the socioeconomic classes as the kids get older, though. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 11:47 AM Flag
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At our top tier private, where you have to assume all the kids scored reasonably well, they still have reading groups and math groups for different levels. Why can't classes just do that? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 11:51 AM Flag
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Aren't by defnition half the people going to be above average and half below. If gifted means above average, then everyone who scored over 51st percentile is gifted. That [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 11:42 AM Flag
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By definition, gifted is IQ 130 and above. That is higher than just above average (average is 100) but not that high. Profoundly gifted starts at 150, I believe. 130 IQ is equiv. to 96 on SB, fwiw [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 11:43 AM Flag
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Steve Martin had a great piece in "The New Yorker" a few years back about joining MENSA and wondering why the cut-off was 150. And then he met a woman whose IQ was 147 and he had to admit, she was a little slow on the uptake... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 11:50 AM Flag
[ - ] Any Long Island moms on this board? 0 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:50 PM Flag
[ - ] Ack. Stupid UB won't register my settings. Every board is selected for my viewing! 2 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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New York City 06.23.08, 06:49 PM Flag
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did you actually save your settings? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:51 PM Flag
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yes [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:54 PM Flag
[ - ] Parents need to establish consequences for misbehavior, and follow through on them, no matter what. So many problems come from lack of follow-through. 7 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:49 PM Flag
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Yes Dr. Ruth. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:50 PM Flag
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Quiz: Dr. Ruth was a... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:52 PM Flag
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np: lol. over sexed psycho. I would say yes Dr. Phil [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:53 PM Flag
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Everyone is an expert until life turns around and kicks her in the teeth. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:51 PM Flag
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She's right. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:52 PM Flag
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Except for the ones who blame their problems on fate [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:53 PM Flag
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much easier said than done, though [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 07:43 PM Flag
[ - ] Ambien during pregnancy? Anyone do this? 0 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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Expecting 06.23.08, 06:45 PM Flag
[ - ] If there is going to be movement on the wl, it will be this week, right? Any news? 2 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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NY Schools 06.23.08, 06:45 PM Flag
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wouldn't have been last wk? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:51 PM Flag
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the deadline for g&T was Friday. In any event, has there been movement? I have heard several state they were giving up private for g&t, but not one has posted that they just got called off a wl. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:53 PM Flag
[ - ] How was the A event tonite? Gossip? 31 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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NY Schools 06.23.08, 06:44 PM Flag
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Every child is going to cure cancer and AIDS, secure peace in the Middle East and solve the oil crisis. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:46 PM Flag
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Wow. I hope they can do that by 5th grade, because it's gonna be a long time before they grow up! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:50 PM Flag
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Please. If they haven't done it by 2nd they're counseled out. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:58 PM Flag
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It was fine. Whoever on here that said the class was over 2/3 girls was telling the truth. The class isn't really diverse (not sure if that's out of the ordinary). Not really much else to say. It was your typical school registration/ "picnic." My dd enjoyed the clown. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:48 PM Flag
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they really should have picked the first 25 girls and first 25 boys to achieve gender balance. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:57 PM Flag
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ITA [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 07:01 PM Flag
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That's what the school wanted, but this year it worked out for us having 2/3 girls in our K class. I'm sure it will be good for you too this year. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 05:14 AM Flag
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why? what is the advantage of doing that? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 07:22 AM Flag
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it corrects for bias in the testing which becomes non-existent after a few years. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 07:42 AM Flag
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I thought it was much more diverse than I expected. Lots of different nationalities and races represented. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 05:09 AM Flag
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Only a little more than half of the incoming class was able to attend the picnic. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 05:12 AM Flag
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then i'm expecting even more diversity! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 07:00 AM Flag
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ITA! I wonder why almost half of the incoming class could not attend the picnic? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 07:20 AM Flag
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because the parents have to put food on the table? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 07:22 AM Flag
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Oy... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 07:36 AM Flag
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So, why weren't they there? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 07:38 AM Flag
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my son has a violin lesson on every Monday night... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 08:32 AM Flag
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yeah, and you could not reschedule it could you? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 08:41 AM Flag
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hmmm, group class... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 08:59 AM Flag
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no make-ups?? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 09:25 AM Flag
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Hello!!! make-up is for the teacher, as a student, you snooze you lose... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 09:49 AM Flag
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Not where dc goes, though it is piano not violin. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 10:12 AM Flag
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skipping violin lessons for this? no freaking way! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 09:42 AM Flag
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why do you care?? bizarre. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 10:56 AM Flag
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i've been vindicated by everyone who said i was passing on false info. ;-) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 10:54 AM Flag
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YES! Found out Anderson was a public school and the education will be just a cr$ppy as at other publics! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 07:26 AM Flag
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Yes, you're right and that's why 90% of Anderson kids go on to Specialized HS's, just like ALL nyc public school kids!!! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 08:57 AM Flag
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BWAHAHAHA 'specialized HS' hahahaha lolololol [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 09:12 AM Flag
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why is that funny? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 09:47 AM Flag
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This can't be the right number, considering quite a few are going to Beacon, smaller public HSs, and privates. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 09:28 AM Flag
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okay -- how about this stat: virtually all (could be ALL, but i can't say with 100% certainty) 8th grade grads got into their first choice HS (whatever that was). might surprise you, but not everyone wants to go to stuy, bronx sci, etc. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 10:59 AM Flag
[ - ] Gotta say....DD, who had 99's on OLSAT and SB and 98 (with 99 vebal)on ERB is really just not that smart! I don't think the tests mean much. Don't think I'm a bad mom....love her and love all the more important good qualities about her...just don't think she's any smarter than any other 4 year old I know. 5 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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NY Schools 06.23.08, 06:42 PM Flag
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Where is she going to school? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:47 PM Flag
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non TT private. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:51 PM Flag
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If what you say is true, then she'll probably fit in better there. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 07:02 PM Flag
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NP and that is just STUPID. Plenty of brilliant kids at non-TTs and plenty of dumb kids at TTs. Trust me. I've had kids in both. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 07:37 PM Flag
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I feel the same way about my dd who also scored 99s on all of the test. Nothing stands out about her as being incredibly smart to me. Love her to pieces, of course. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:52 PM Flag
[ - ] 2 questions: 1. is the DOE acknowledging receipt of G&T placement acceptances? 2. do we need to tell our current school we are switching schools or does registering in the new program automatically transfer the data? 1 Reply [ Reply | Watch | More
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New York City 06.23.08, 06:41 PM Flag
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It will take about two minutes to tell your zoned school. They may appreciate it, they may not - but I think its polite to call and tell them. Some schools have waiting lists - if it's one of those, you will make a mom's life so much better by letting her find out her child has a spot sooner rather than later. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 05:05 AM Flag
[ - ] I don't want my MIL to be our live-in nanny! My DH has suggested it twice (as we are looking for a full time live-in) but she would drive me crazy and my DH's six other siblings would view our house as 'house central' and constantly come over! Plus it's not fair to my mom - she only has one grandchild but lives 3 hrs aways. DH mom has 4 grandkids already plus another on the way. Just venting. 4 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:39 PM Flag
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Stand your ground. Don't give in on this. When you hire a nanny, you set the basic rules, and if she doesn't abide by them, you can fire her. This wouldn't fly with a relative. STAND FIRM! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:47 PM Flag
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Don't give in mil living with you would be awful. But fyi, it not being fair to your mom is not a good argument. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:50 PM Flag
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Thanks. My DH view is that no one but a relative would love our daughter as much as we do and of course, this would be very economical. BUT I just need to draw the line or else I know his family would always be around. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:55 PM Flag
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Nonononononono... you cannot letthis happen. Fall to your knees and appeal to the heavens ! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:54 PM Flag
[ - ] I want to stop yelling at my 6 year old. He doesn't listen, particularly in public. He thinks every request/order from me is an opportunity to "debate" with me on its merits. Today, we were at Staples, and I had walked out with my youngest who was in a stroller and my 6 year old was right behind me. But he turned back to return to the store so he could "find Dad" (my husband had stayed in to find his sunglasses which he's misplaced in the store). I said to my 6 year old "No, you come here right now please". Then the stroller started rolling down the sidewalk (I had let go of it to talk to my eldest) and as it started rolling I said "L, come here RIGHT now!" and he kept screaming that he was going back inside. So I ran towards him, grabbed his arm too strongly and said "When I ask you to come, you must COME! Especially in a public place blah blah blah". I grabbed my stroller, which hadn't rolled but a couple of feet in the end, and I said "for this, you get no t.v. tonight" (which I admit was too strong a reaction) and he started wailing and crying huge tears. Now, I do this too often. I over react and shout when I shouldn't, I allow him to push my buttons. I am weaning off anti-depressants after 15 years, and am doing great, except for this anger issue which really comes on suddenly--like it's hard to control myself. I am journaling, and very aware of what's happening, but I really hate taking it out on my oldest. He is VERY verbal, argumentative, funny, and generally a very loveable kid, but MAN, he thinks EVERY SINGLE THING is up for debate. Any help/books/sites/ideas? 1 Reply [ Reply | Watch | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:39 PM Flag
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I've done that too. You do what you have to do. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:51 PM Flag
[ - ] Hi, a bit confused what does DD and DB and DH mean? I see these all the time when reading post...please help 2 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:37 PM Flag
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dear daughter, dear baby, dear husband (or dick head - depending) Down towards the bottom on the right is a button that says board help - abbreviations. SHould help [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:42 PM Flag
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thanks sooo much! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.24.08, 06:54 AM Flag
[ - ] Sorry if too much TMI. What works for constant constipation on an adult? 9 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:37 PM Flag
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plug a garden hose up your rectum and let it go [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:40 PM Flag
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I just spit wine out of my nose [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:42 PM Flag
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wow, putting that degree to use. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:49 PM Flag
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my medical degree ? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:53 PM Flag
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Yes correspondence school worked for you. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:57 PM Flag
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HAHAHAHA [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 07:27 PM Flag
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Try Align from P&G fixes constipation and any other digestive issue you might have. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:47 PM Flag
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prune juice, fiber rich foods, lots of salads, natural elimiation pills/powders from Whole Foods. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 07:09 PM Flag
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flax seeds work wonders and are supper healthy... Just add a tablespoon here and there to your diet. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 07:27 PM Flag
[ - ] I want to stop yelling at my 6 year old. He doesn't listen, particularly in public. He thinks every request/order from me is an opportunity to "debate" with me on its merits. Today, we were at Staples, and I had walked out with my youngest who was in a stroller and my 6 year old was right behind me. But he turned back to return to the store so he could "find Dad" (my husband had stayed in to find his sunglasses which he's misplaced in the store). I said to my 6 year old "No, you come here right now please". Then the stroller started rolling down the sidewalk (I had let go of it to talk to my eldest) and as it started rolling I said "L, come here RIGHT now!" and he kept screaming that he was going back inside. So I ran towards him, grabbed his arm too strongly and said "When I ask you to come, you must COME! Especially in a public place blah blah blah". I grabbed my stroller, which hadn't rolled but a couple of feet in the end, and I said "for this, you get no t.v. tonight" (which I admit was too strong a reaction) and he started wailing and crying huge tears. Now, I do this too often. I over react and shout when I shouldn't, I allow him to push my buttons. I am weaning off anti-depressants after 15 years, and am doing great, except for this anger issue which really comes on suddenly--like it's hard to control myself. I am journaling, and very aware of what's happening, but I really hate taking it out on my oldest. He is VERY verbal, argumentative, funny, and generally a very loveable kid, but MAN, he thinks EVERY SINGLE THING is up for debate. Any help/books/sites/ideas? 28 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:37 PM Flag
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Gotta say, I dont think you overreacted. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:38 PM Flag
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really? I really shouted at him...like "it's totally NOT OKAY to not listen to me in public"...I mean, I do this once a day!! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:41 PM Flag
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Well I am no expert. I lose my temper with 6 yo son too (and I take antidepressants and I would be arrested for child abuse if I didn't) I don't think you are teaching him anything by yelling of course but when you are frustrated and fighting for control that is a natural by product [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:42 PM Flag
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Book- Scream Free Parenting, Setting Limits with Your Strong Willed Child. Advice - MAJOR consequences you can deliver on for this behavior and you can NEVER cave. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:42 PM Flag
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i am reading scream free parenting--really like it. thanks. But seriosuly, should i give him MAJOR CONSEQUENCES for back talk/debate/not shutting the F up when he should? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:44 PM Flag
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OR: Of course you should! If not now when will you teach him the consequences? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:44 PM Flag
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right, but what kind of consequences-he didn't hit someone--he didn't do as I asked, but it wasn't like cursing or something. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:47 PM Flag
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If you want him to listen you need to stand your ground. Obviously you don't want to hear what we have to say. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:52 PM Flag
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I absolutely do. But you're saying backtalk deserves as big a punishment as say, smacking a sibling hard on the head. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:53 PM Flag
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Maybe it does. Clearly your son gets away with it. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:53 PM Flag
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Maybe you need to set up rules ahead of time. Have a conversation and say, you don't listen to me, you argue constantly. Here's the consequence if you don't listen in the future: loss of Saturday morning tv, loss of allowance, loss of other privilege he values. Make a chart - keep track of it. etc. We've found this useful. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:57 PM Flag
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hi-just talked with my dh about this, and we decided to do a good behavior chart--every time he does something good, like listening in public, sharing with his brother, clearing his plate, he gets a star. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 07:10 PM Flag
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he doesn't get away with it. I am clear, firm, about the expectations. but my "no movie night tonight" was an off the cuff punishment that came out of my desire to hurt him, because he values movie night above all else. It wasn't a well thought out punishment at all. It was reactive. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 07:13 PM Flag
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NP: It does. I mean, if the message is that talking back is more acceptable than hitting someone, that's probably part of the problem. They're both bad, hurtful and disrespectful. If you send the message that it's "better," he'll behave that way. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:57 PM Flag
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Yes - if the topic isn't up for debate you have to show him who's boss and you mean what you say. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:45 PM Flag
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right, but what kind of consequences are appropriate? DH thought that no tv that night was excessive as we'd planned on having a family movie night, and it kind of ruined it for everyone else. TIme outs dont' work as he's too old for them, and really doesn't mind them at all. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:46 PM Flag
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You should have had the movie night without him. I think that sets the tone. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:47 PM Flag
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ITTA. Dc misbehaving does not ruin the evening for the whole family. Just him. Dc is upset (good, it's a punishment) but no tv for one night won't hurt him. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:51 PM Flag
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maybe you're right, but a part of me, the part who knows my son really, really well, knows that he would just get REALLY REALLY angry at the punishment, and NOT change his behavior. His behavior would become even more firmly entrenched. I don't know this for sure, but i have some gut feeling. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:52 PM Flag
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You're obviously afraid of setting your son off. He's in control here. Not you. And he knows it. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:53 PM Flag
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You're making excuses b/c you are afraid of him having a tantrum. He knows he can play you. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:56 PM Flag
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I think DH needs to back you on this, it spoiled his fun but it was the right choice. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:48 PM Flag
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NP: ittttta. There have to be consequences, you can't back down, there has to be a united front. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:51 PM Flag
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I think your no tv reaction was fine, just work on doing it firmly, w/o screaming. Some things are NOT up for debate, and if dc doesn't listen, there must be consequences. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:46 PM Flag
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My son was ungovernable when he was 6. To me, that age was worse than any before or since (he's almost 11 now). We went on a family trip that still causes me to cringe when I think of the mutual frustration that built up between the two of us and my level of meltdown in response to HIS meltdown. I think it's very possible that he and you will get past this before too long :) Especially since your ds has so many other great qualities. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:55 PM Flag
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thank you so much. He really is a wonderful, kind, sweet kid. I think he will respond better to positive reinforcement than negative talk like "look how many demerits you got today" or whatever you call them. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 07:12 PM Flag
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Yes, my sense based on my own experience is that you are right on track. Parental yelling and "losing it" is often far worse for the parent than the kids - remember they are 100% involved with the next thing while you are still shaking and full of remorse and searching for therapists and planning out the consequences. I don't know if it's more applicable to boys (I have an 8 yr old girl who was easier at age 6,) but I've heard from other parents as well that 6 is just all around tough for many kids & parents. Developmentally, age 6 is a limit-pushing time as well as a time of disequalibrium. There's a huge leap in emotional and intellectual maturity sometime between turning 7 and 8. The difficulties you're describing could be analagous to the two's when kids are more aware of the surrounding world and want more autonomy but don't have the emotional or intellectual development to express their new feelings. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 08:57 PM Flag
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Also, I think the current belief in the necessity of punishment/consequences for all infractions refelcts a rather sad and ultimately ineffective attempt to help parents maintain an illusion of control. My little secret for keeping the peace and continuing some forward momentum is the same old diversion tactic - it works really well waaay past the toddler stage (it tends to work with mis-behaving adults as well.) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 09:16 PM Flag
[ - ] Anyone tried Smart Lipo? 0 Replies [ Reply | Watch | More
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General Topics 06.23.08, 06:35 PM Flag
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