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06.11.20, 14:14 PM General Topics
74 replies
Does anyone think that if they remove screens for middle and high school, that things will be fine? I want to hear from those people. [ Reply | Watch | Flag ]
General Topics 06.11.20, 02:14 PM Flag
 

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I don't even understand what that means. No computers at all? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 02:17 PM Flag
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OP: academic screening tools in admissions (grades, test scores). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 02:19 PM Flag
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Oh. haha. I have young kids so I haven't been following. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 02:22 PM Flag
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Lol [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 03:33 PM Flag
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omg. where have you BEEN woman! new to UB? lol :-) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 10:30 PM Flag
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no. Not at all. But they are not fine now either. The difference is who has to expereicen the "not fineness." So my question is what do we do to make it better if they remove screens. I want to look at Ed Opt schools like Murrow in Brooklyn, which many people like, as an example of what a version of unscreened would be (though Murrow actually does screen -- but for a bell curve of student performance). But it's a huge school, which makes it easier to meet needs of a spectrum of learners at least in terms of course offerings. And I don't have a kid there, but there is tracking, which has to happen in high schools, I think, though maybe there are better ways of implementing tracking. I think middle schools can be easier, because curriculum is really much more uniform across all middle schools. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 02:22 PM Flag
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Define 'fine'? Spreading resources out (which is what is happening here) will probably raise the mean but there may no longer be tip-top public education that rivals private schools. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 02:26 PM Flag
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The experience of attending a strong, diverse public school vs an elite private school is different and I think people discount the educational benefits of the experience of the former. I'm not saying there arent trade-offs, but there are trade-offs both ways. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 02:34 PM Flag
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How do you know the MS and HS will be strong after removing screens? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 03:19 PM Flag
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I am thinking of schools like Murrow that are intentionally diverse or public schools in other parts of the country. I know that all these larger schools track in some and figuring how to do tracking well is part of managing a strong, diverse public school. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 03:53 PM Flag
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The key point is that it screens. No one is against diversity, people simply want standards and screens. The strong student body is what makes the successful HS great. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 04:10 PM Flag
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But it screens to accept a student body that include 16% students who are high performers, 68% middle and 16% low. I think most people would be ok with screens like that. performance level was historically determined by state ELA test score; high performance cutoff was generally in the high 3s range. I;m not sure what the low range encompassed. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 05:00 PM Flag
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Both my kids attended an unscreened NYC middle school and it wasn't perfect and had ups and downs but they had a strong (untracked) education and had good high school prospects. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 03:54 PM Flag
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Were these zoned? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 04:08 PM Flag
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No, but they were diverse, so mix of students by race, academic ahcievement. ABout 40% free and reduced lunch. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 04:59 PM Flag
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^diverse means plurality Black but sizable white and Hispanic minorities. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 05:07 PM Flag
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But did kids have to apply to be in it, even if it had no screens? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 05:15 PM Flag
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No. It was "unscreened" so admission was by lottery. No diversity preferences. Pure lottery. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 05:26 PM Flag
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But you have to submit for the lottery. So that in itself is a screen because it attracted families who really care, have the time and determination to find a good school for their kids. they bought into whatever the philosophy of the school was. The problem with our system is not how to educate those kids, but what to do with the ones whose families simply do not care enough. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 06:08 PM Flag
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Not really becuse the only way you get into a middle school in NYC is by putting in an application and ranking schools. So all families do put in applications. Some may not educate themselves about choices and just put a school they know about. But all students/families submit an application. It's not a separate application like charter schools. People rank choices and then students are admitted based on whatever criteria the school uses (test scores+grades, onsite test+interview, doversity preferences, pure lottery, etc.). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 07:36 PM Flag
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Exactly my point, some just put the nearest school, some don't care what they get. I bet the kids at your school do not all live around it, which means all those parents decided it is worth it for them to commute to school. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 08:32 PM Flag
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It won't raise it because there will be a drain - families with resources and high-performing kids will leave the system. BASIS added a full 6ht grade class to accommodate D15 student fleeing the MS system. Some people left, charters saw interest some have never experienced before. Some people left. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 03:18 PM Flag
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A very interesting article, the DOE person who implemented the matching system for HS (D15 algorithm is the same), lives in D15 and chose to send his child to a charter vs a low performing MS. The charter is not that high-performing either. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 03:37 PM Flag
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/school-choice-expert-has-unique-take-on-brooklyn-districts-new-admissions-system-11569070802 [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 03:38 PM Flag
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Yes. So did Josh Wallack, head of enrollment. His D15 child is going to a screened D2 school. Look up every DOE buerocrat, they all sent their kids to selective schools despite their striving to remove such screens. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 04:31 PM Flag
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I'm in this position this year. I don't think I can defend screens but my son is in 7th and there are schools to which I would not send him if that's where he matched. I don't think these things are necessarily at odds. If we keep screens, it's more likely that DS would match to a school to which I would feel comfortable sending him, but the fact that eliminating screens means he may get a placement I can't accept doesn't mean the system as it is is fair or right and that I should fight to keep it in a way that advantages him? My situation does mean I am also thinking about what else we can do beyond eliminaing screens so it's more likely that DS would get a match we are comfortable with . . . [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 05:05 PM Flag
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Sorry but you are the epitome of hypocrisy, just like all these DOE officials who sent their kids to screened schools already. You are for removing screens while you admit you may not send your DC to some of the schools. Lucky you to have options. What about parents and students who do not favor removing screens but have no other options? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 07:26 PM Flag
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But that's the same situation now for all of the families of students who don't do as well in school or on state tests -- (which is a larger and generally less empowered group than those they do well by those screens)? I'm a hypocite regardless, right, simply because if I didn't like the match my kid gets, I have another choice -- probably (you never really know how life may change). But the system as it is now makes it much more likely that my kid will get a good match and the system that I am advocating for makes it less likely that my kid will get a good match. My situation is the same regardless of the system, and so I try to take myself out of it and advocate for a system that would do the most good for the larger number of kids. Don't get me wrong, I don't think of myself as a saint or virtuous. I;m just looking at the situation and trying to be honest about what I feel I can advocate for and also how I would behave since I have a kid in the process. Do you think I'm not a hypocrite if I advocate for the system that advantages high performing kids like my own but say I want a better world and more equity? That feels more hypocritical to me -- empty virtue signalling. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 07:42 PM Flag
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^I think the real argument is whether removing screens does improve things, in the sense of making access to school quality more equitable. The rejoinder seems to be that it doesn't because the only thing that makes schools good is having strong students, and so fewer strong students means worse schools means more people with choices leaving the system meaning fewer strong students. Vicious cycle. I don't think that the only things that makes schools "good" is having strong students though I do think having some strong students is probably important. With that in mind, I think avoiding the vicious cycle is something that planning can minimize . . . [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 08:10 PM Flag
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When over 50% of NYC kids are not reading/doing math at grade level (which is a low bar to start with), removing screens for a few schools will do absolutely nothing to improve that # or help the majority of children. How will removing screens help the kids in Bushwick or in Bronx where there are barely any screened schools (and schools sit half empty because anyone who could escape is in a Charter)? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 01:51 AM Flag
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A lot of words to say you push for a change, but if it doesn't work for you, your family will not participate to make the changed system better. But you want to force it upon other people. It won't work for many other families and they will all leave the system, which will lead to a mass exodus. So who will work to make the changes give results? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 09:04 PM Flag
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But what's the alternative? Some group doesn't get access regardless; change just changes the rules about who has access. It's not like what we has now is better. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 02:46 AM Flag
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The change has to start at ES school level. Call a spade a spade. This is not about race but about kids who start falling behind in K already. If we educate all kids well in ES we won't be stuck with undesirable MS and HS. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 02:58 PM Flag
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Take yourself out of it and advocate for a system that would do the most good for a larger # of kids, but that good is not good enough for your kid. Wow. Just like our hypocritical bureaucrats using your privilege to escape. Its OK for you force this lack of choice onto poorer families who cannot take themselves out of the system?? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 01:49 AM Flag
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But poorer families now are disproportionately adversely affected by the current screening. More so than without screening. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 02:47 AM Flag
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I could advocate for the status quo but if my kid didn't get in a school I liked I could opt out then too. Is that less hypocritical? People do this now all the time with NYC schools. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 02:53 AM Flag
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What about those who do favor removing screens because they have no good options now? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 02:48 AM Flag
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Interesting. People who had tried Basis out from D13 a few years back mostly seem to not like -- leave for HS and not send younger kids. Not everyone, but def the majority. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 05:48 PM Flag
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I think certain demographic really likes it. For some it's a temporary measure to get through MS and they apply for different HS. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 06:23 PM Flag
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this, at least the child will get a decent shot for HS. some MS do not prepare the kids [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 10:22 PM Flag
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This!! More choices for HS, including SHS and kids are older and can travel. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 01:51 AM Flag
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If they remove screens, they need to add tracking. Period. For ALL schools, especially in traditionally lower-performing schools in low income neighborhoods. Give every single child in this city the specialized learning they need (whether it's remedial or accelerated), and I guarantee the demographics of the applicant pool for SHS (where test screens should ABSOLUTELY be kept) will broaden dramatically. This shouldn't cost much money or be a massive initiative - it's just rejiggering classroom assignments. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 02:30 PM Flag
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Do you think you need tracking in middle school? My kids' unscreened middle has simply offered ALgebra and Living ENvironment regents for ALL students. Not all students wind up taking the regents (so they effectively choose to take the class again in 9th grade). There are pluses and minuses with this approach, and we may try to tweak it. ELA and SS aren't tracked, but I think those classes are much easier to differentiate in a mixed achievement classroom. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 02:38 PM Flag
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I think it depends on class size. In a group of 32 kids needs of mixed achievement, how can every ability be addressed? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 02:44 PM Flag
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They aren't comepletely. In ALgebra a couple years ago when my kid was there, the class probably didn't get to as much as they would have had it been a tracked group and I think that translated into lower regents scores, but maybe more high 80s for students who otherwise have gotten 90s? Is that the biggest deal? Is the trade-off worth it? The bigger issue is how are struggling student supported -- and in those advanced classes, that's the piece that our school is stil working on. You def need more pull-out, individualized support. But I think it is doable, at least better than we have done until now. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 02:48 PM Flag
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High 80s in Regents Algebra is nothing to get excited about (the curve is ridiculous - the new passing grade on the Algebra 1 Regents test, newly aligned with up-to-date standards, is 31.4%. Out of the 86 points, high school students have to get 27 right - from 2017). Most HS won't even put you in Geometry if you scored below an 85. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 01:54 AM Flag
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np. My MS daughter says her math teacher has no time to answer her questions because she prefers to allocate time to her lowest performing students, who are also quite disruptive, hence miss more of what is being taught. When she has a question, she is told to go to after-school math help group, led by HS students, who are not always good at helping the younger kids. And the teacher is great btw. So having 32 kids all over the map clearly doesn't work. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 03:06 PM Flag
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I had this same experience with DC in elementary. My DC is higher performing (not a genius, but does great on tests, grasps concepts quickly, loves going deeper in various subjects independently) but is rather quiet and shy and not self-directed or self-motivated. Can basically get all 3s with zero effort (and is fine with this), so gets easily lost in the shuffle in a larger, more disruptive class. Bright kids who are more outgoing and self-motivated can do outstanding in any environment (and maybe even benefit from the "big fish, small pond" experience where they stand out) - these are often the parents who put down screened or G&T programs (because their kids thrived in mixed/Gen Ed programs, and got into top middle schools, etc.)... but many kids need to be in an environment that pushes them. I would argue this is even MORE true in lower performing schools, where parental involvement and outside enrichment might be lower. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 03:47 PM Flag
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I have one of each kind of these kids (though my quieter kid is a better test taker, which has helped her in NYC with all its test-based screening). I think both kids have learned more from being in a diverse classroom, even with the disruption and imperfect differentiation, than they would have in a more curated environment. And I say this based on them having been in both screened and unscreened environments. Part of this is because I'm an engaged parent and can follow what they are doing and push them a lot when needed and supplement. This is unrealistic for many families. I think no matter what we decide, there will be trade-offs and different trade-offs may make sense at different moments. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 03:58 PM Flag
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Totally agree with you that being an involved parent is key, whether a child is struggling or accelerated. Maybe I'm misguided, but I feel like for that reason, a tracking system actually benefits students in areas where there may not be as much parental involvement? My reality is that I'm very privileged, live in D2, have children who learn and test easily, and am able to provide enrichment. Screened schools are nice to have, but certainly not necessary for my children's ultimate success. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 05:25 PM Flag
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np. Put your kids in a school with a bunch of disruptive kids, and let's see how well they learn. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 06:09 PM Flag
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I'm actually making the case for tracking as a way to benefit all kids, not just the privileged, which ultimately improves diversity into the screened MS and HS (which is the supposed goal of the current admin). My point above was that in a disruptive classroom, my kids have a better shot of coming out ahead than a child whose parents are unable to be as involved (often due to systemic failures/factors such as housing insecurity, having to work multiple jobs, incarceration, language barrier, etc.) I don't have hard stats handy to fact check, but a few weeks ago I saw someone note stats about Charter Schools being largely AA/Hispanic in the city. What this tells me is that involved parents of high performing students of color are finding ways of getting their kids in tracked programs anyway. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 06:37 PM Flag
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pp. Yes, I absolutely agree with you reg tracking, but DOE is so opposed, I doubt it will happen. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 06:40 PM Flag
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Somehow the chancellor has somehow conflated any sort of tracking or grouping as contributing to inequality... when the reality is, the kids who would benefit most would be the neediest children in schools that are currently low performing. And THEN you could easily switch to a lottery system for schools, and nobody would bat an eye. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 07:06 PM Flag
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100%. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 10:25 PM Flag
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i think they got rid of some of the tracking they had in D15 MS when they switched to lottery. They dont want to make "a school within a school". Where kids that went to higher performing ES ( white) are all in the same classes, excluding POC. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 10:24 PM Flag
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My question - what is happening in the D15 highly sought after schools like MS 51 , New Voicers, etc. now that there is a mix of ability but no ability grouping? How are the schools handling the kids coming in below grade level, lack of home supports , etc. if at all? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 01:57 AM Flag
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I disagree. Disruptive classrooms affect the non disruptive children, and depending on the child, can have major negative impacts. One of my kids went through this in ES, it was a nightmare, caused massive anxiety, bored, and eventually acting out. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 01:56 AM Flag
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this is the biggest issue. There are a couple of disruptive kids in my childs class and they ruined the year. So much wasted time in the classroom. Some kids cannot behave, they get poor grades because they arent doing the work or paying attention, and they shouldnt be in a class with top performers. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 10:27 PM Flag
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Tracking is like adding screening within the school. It is well documented that class averages and overall learning will improve by mixing a broader range of students. The top half brings the lower half up, and the top half tend to do well regardless. There may not be as much differentiation at the very top of the class, so extracurricular or interest clubs (athletes, chess, debate, model UN, etc) hopefully provide enough. For those that disagree with this model, they often leave and look for schools with a smaller range of students or academic privates where their DC is possibly in the lower-middle and can rise upward. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 08:40 PM Flag
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Ah yes, the old "the smart kids will be fine" approach. Their needs do not need to be met. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 01:58 AM Flag
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You are equating the performance of the upper half of a class with being smart, and I am not. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 01:06 PM Flag
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I am ok with removing screens for middle schools. At least in District 3. I think it would solve a lot of problems. Agree that some tracking needs to be implemented instead. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 02:56 PM Flag
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I agree but they would do tracking either which is frustrating. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 03:34 PM Flag
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I do. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 09:30 PM Flag
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the crazy part, is that if we were really trying to prevent COVID spread, they would assign MS & HS kids to the school closest to their home. People would freak. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 10:29 PM Flag
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Why? Maybe it would be a good solution for kids to attend a school very close to their home, and it could also help stabilize neighborhoods and rents. There would only be a few school options per address. I don't know of any other place where your K address allows access to the school through 5th. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 10:45 PM Flag
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Other places are not prone to rapid gentrification the way it happens here. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.11.20, 11:09 PM Flag
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I guess I was thinking about SF, where we lived when DCs were younger. Most of us would have preferred going to our neighborhood school, rather than commute young kids up to 45 minutes or more. If there are issues with coronavirus spread, made worse by public transportation and density, maybe it makes sense to temporarily stop the grandfathered in K address. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 01:14 PM Flag
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NYC was like that in the 80s. But, each ES/MS had tracking in the building (slow, gen ed, adn SP) and the zoned HS were the big schools (kind of like Murrow now) with different levels and the size allowed different academic needs to be met as there were enough bodies to fill a class at that level. Then some of the large HS became dangerous failing places and thus the era of small boutique HS was ushered in. If DOe wants to remove screens, they need to do away with all the small schools, and bring back the suburban style large zoned HS. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 02:00 AM Flag
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This! No screens and no tracking means one-size-fits-all. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 02:52 AM Flag
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That wouldn't solve for diversity in affluent neighborhoods [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 01:48 AM Flag
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thats why i said people would freak. the same reason many have issues with zoned ES. BUt from a health standpoint, it makes sense [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 04:34 PM Flag
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thats why i said people would freak. the same reason many have issues with zoned ES. BUt from a health standpoint, it makes sense [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.12.20, 04:34 PM Flag
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