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05.28.08, 08:43 AM NY Schools
59 replies
So now the DOE has decided not to have universal G&T testing in K next year? Didn't the DOE change around the G&T admissions process this year to afford greater access to G&T programs? What was the point of all of this? So frustrating. [ Reply | Watch | Flag ]
NY Schools 05.28.08, 08:43 AM Flag
 

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wheere did you get this inforamtion? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 08:45 AM Flag
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insideschools.org [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 08:48 AM Flag
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What? Where did you hear this? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 08:46 AM Flag
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http://www.nysun.com/new-york/rollback-set-in-schooling-of-the-gifted/78765/ [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 08:49 AM Flag
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Thanks for the URL. Damn, I hate the DOE. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:07 AM Flag
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Instead of offering to every child automatically you have to request the test. Not really a big change as long as the teachers make sure that every kid will get a copy of the request form. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 08:48 AM Flag
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What troubles me is that certain groups of parents are less likely to request their dc be tested, for a variety of reasons having nothing to do with their dc's intelligence. And so the change will reduce access to the programs for certain subpopulations of dc. And these are dc who would benefit most from G&T if they qualify! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:11 AM Flag
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But do you really think that those parents will let their kids switch schools (which most likely will increase the commute time) even if they were automatically tested and found to be gifted? Automatic testing is fine and dandy but the process does not stop there. The parents still have to make the effort to rank schools etc. etc. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:38 AM Flag
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and I doubt that they want to be ripped out of their comfort zone just for the kid's sake in most cases. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:38 AM Flag
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Yes, I do think many of them will step up and make the effort and let their dc switch schools if they're offered something better. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:50 AM Flag
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you are an optimist [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 10:19 AM Flag
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[ Removed by moderator ] [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 10:33 AM Flag
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even if it disturbs the routine the family has settled in? Getting the kid to a school that is farther away and thus needs much more involvement is a pretty hefty price to pay for something that has only a longterm outcome. It is not like winning a plasma TV that you can enjoy right away. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 11:41 AM Flag
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ITA. Plus most low income people have multiple children, which makes doing something like this a very daunting proposition. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 06:26 PM Flag
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Some do, some don't, but isn't it still better to give everyone the opportunity? It's no skin off your nose. And while many deal in stereotypes, there are always exceptions and just rewarding and helping those exceptions makes the entire process worthwhile. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 06:38 PM Flag
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np--We live in the Bronx, and I see parents with their children on the crowded train every morning at 7AM taking their children to charter schools in Harlem. I don't think it's about comfort zone--I do think there is a distrust of white-run schools. In the minority community, charter schools serve much the same function as gifted and talented schools do for upper middle class white families. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 07:01 PM Flag
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Why frustrating. Means less competition. But they aren't getting any closer to leveling the playing field... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 08:54 AM Flag
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Quite a few parents were vocal about not wanting to have their kids tested. Having seen how some parents reacted to getting the test results in the past I am not surprised. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 08:57 AM Flag
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It's frustrating b/c they changed around the admissions process (not necessarily for the better) under the guise of trying to open up G&T programs to everyone. Now they have scrapped the universal testing plan before it really even began, so why did they have to muck around with the process? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 08:57 AM Flag
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Do you really think they should test kids if parents are against it? What would be the purpose? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 08:58 AM Flag
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First, if parents are so anti-testing, then public schools in this country are not for them. They are just going to have to accept that testing is a part of the public school experience. Second, I don't even care that the plan is scrapped, except that the DoE messed around with an admissions process for the express purpose of opening up G&T to more kids. Now, they aren't following through with that plan, so they messed around with admissions for nothing. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:00 AM Flag
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The important big changes the DOE did from last to this year was the inclusion of the BRSA and the fact that you rank the schools after the scores are in. They also got rid of the waiting lists and give preference to siblings. These changes are not going anywhere. Not getting kids tested automatically is a little setback but I am okay with it because that's an easy way to save money w/o a huge impact. Just make sure every kid is sent home with the request form. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:03 AM Flag
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I don't think all of those changes were positive ones or ones that help to afford greater access to G&T. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:08 AM Flag
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Testing is still free and available to everyone, which is a huge change. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:11 AM Flag
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no, of course not. The greater access is out the window for now because of the budget cuts. But that doesn't mean that the changes done for this year were done for nothing. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:12 AM Flag
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There is still more access, you can get tested in the school and it does not cost anything. And it's the same test for every G&T program in the city. Every district or school had a different process before then. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:15 AM Flag
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I think the argument is that compared to the application process in 2007 access has been widened because of the automatic testing in preK and K. But you are right. Compared to how it was done before 2007 it is a major improvement. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:17 AM Flag
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Oh please. Achievement testing in third grade and above is a far cry from IQ testing of 4 year olds before they even set foot in the school. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:12 AM Flag
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Does anybody know the history of G&T in NYC? Who came up with the idea to start tracking in Kindergarten? I have the suspicion that it was initiated by parents! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:13 AM Flag
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Quite possibly, but even though some parents are totally into it, there are still a lot of parents not buying into it. Especially if they have good zoned school, why bother? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:16 AM Flag
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np. I think it should be an opt-out system rather than opt-in. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:13 AM Flag
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it serves no purpose to give G&T placements to kids whose parents will not follow through and actually send their kids there. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:16 AM Flag
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People who have a philosophical objection to G&T can opt out of having dc tested in the first place. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:22 AM Flag
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How about those that don't have psychological objections, but can't be bothered to get their dc to school other than their nearby zoned school? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:26 AM Flag
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What about them? There will be some people like that, of course, and obviously there's no way to force them to send dc to the other school. If every dc who scores 90%+ is guaranteed a spot somewhere, it's not taking away another dc's spot if the parent chooses not to send dc after all. But what about the parents who will find a way to send dc to the G&T if they're offered placement, but who, for whatever reason, might not have asked to have dc tested in an opt-in system? In that scenario there clearly is something lost. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:37 AM Flag
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The application goes home in your child's folder from school. If you have any interest, you will fill it out. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:38 AM Flag
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That was not universally the case two years ago. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:42 AM Flag
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Not necessarily. People whose literacy is limited may not fill it out. People who don't understand the significance may not fill it out. People who are intimidated by what they perceive as an elitist program, or who figure dc won't qualify because they're accustomed to the system being rigged against them may not fill it out. People whose home life is too hectic for whatever reasons may not fill it out. But guess what? If the dc is tested automatically and qualifies, and those same parents are presented with A CONCRETE OPPORTUNITY for their dc, as opposed to a hypothetical opportunity, lots of those same parents who wouldn't have filled out the form will find a way to take advantage of what's being offered. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:57 AM Flag
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I hope our kids are friends. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 10:06 AM Flag
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:) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 10:41 AM Flag
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Okay, you're a cynic. ;) BTW, are you the same person who called me an optimist upthread? Can we consolidate our debate? I feel silly posting the same argument in 2 places in the same thread. lol [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 10:45 AM Flag
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[ Removed by moderator ] [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 10:22 AM Flag
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How do you know? You don't know. You have no concrete evidence of that. I have taught people from poor backgrounds (because I am assuming you are talking about them) and I have seen them stretch to be able to get an associate's degree. You just don't know. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 06:42 PM Flag
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ITA! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 11:23 AM Flag
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then they would not sign up for those schools. But I'll bet if you make the information and placement available to some of the parents who did not know about it before, they will take advantage. And that would be better for their kids and ultimately for us. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:37 AM Flag
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As a public policy/greater good for all the people of my city this sucks. If you accept (as I do) that G&T programs are better for those rare kids who test into them -- then the fact that somebody's parent/guardian is not opting in should not matter. Test everyone and provide the service to the best and brightest. (I would respect parents' wishes and allow them to opt out.) I think about my ds's pre-K class last year. Our zoned district is low SES, majority immigrant/non-English speakers. Nobody else in the school took test for G&T. There were some bright kids in that class. It is a shame. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:19 AM Flag
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ITTTA. Well said. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:23 AM Flag
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Why is it a shame? If those kids are bright, they will do fine and end up at Hunter or Stuy or Bronx Sci for HS. Loads of first generation immigrants that did not go to G&Ts in each of those schools, possibly a majority actually. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:28 AM Flag
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Let me ask -- Do you believe that an elementary G&T is better for a really bright kid of that age group? -OR [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:30 AM Flag
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NP. No, tracking at the age of 5 is ridiculous. Wait a few years before you test the children. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:36 AM Flag
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Really depends on the G&T program and the gen ed alternative. And the child, some love to be a star and it really helps to build up their confidence. Others would get bored. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:37 AM Flag
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I would think that the correlation between quality of gen ed and likelihood of testing better students/smarter kids is pretty high. (I pull this out of my ass, I have no citation.) So let's take it as given that we are talking about high scoring kids in sub par schools. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:41 AM Flag
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Again, quite a few kids manage that just fine for elementary and then go on to selective MSs and HSs. If you look at the incoming class at Stuy or Hunter HS and track back where those kids went to elementary, it is a variety of absolutely unremarkable gen ed schools. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 10:48 AM Flag
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Sure. But what more could they do? how much richer could their childhood have been? if they were in a school where they were encouraged and had like peers. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 10:59 AM Flag
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Sorry but this made me lol. I have a hunch their childhoods have been just fine. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 11:09 AM Flag
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There is a large cottage industry in certain NYC neighborhoods of prepping for the Hunter and Stuyvesant tests. Kids study on weekends and after school for years for the exams. I have been handed a flyer in Manhattan Chinatown where the only non-Chinese word on the page is "Hunter."(np) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 07:35 PM Flag
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I really have my doubts that automatic testing is going to do any good. It will result in a letter that tells you a test score and a form that needs to be filled out. Do you think that parents who don't really care much about giving their kids the best education possible will actually follow up and rank schools and deal with switching schools and schlepping the kid to anything farther away than the zoned school? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:41 AM Flag
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All of them, no. Some of them, yes. Just because a policy is not perfectly successful does not mean it has no merit. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 09:43 AM Flag
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G & T kids get buses to school even if it is just 1 kid, while Gen Ed kids get crap. Even a lazy ass parent can handle that. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 05.28.08, 04:59 PM Flag
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