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07.19.08, 20:02 PM Special Needs
189 replies
I have done a lot of reading now on giftedness and gifted education. It really is a special needs issue. Why are people so hostile about this? [ Reply | Watch | Flag ]
Special Needs 07.19.08, 08:02 PM Flag
 

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Because so often it's not true giftedness. The kids in gifted programs tend to be the prepped children of upper middle class or middle class parents--they don't need the special programs. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:03 PM Flag
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well, but isn't that just sour grapes. there may be quite a few actual gifted kids in these programs. not all, but many. the vehemence against gifted education seems to come from bitterness i think. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:05 PM Flag
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OR: I don't think so. I'm a middle school teacher, and many of my students are former gifted students re-entering the mainstream after gifted elementary programs. As students, they are often indistinguishable from their less gifted peers--and this is after 6 years of having so many additional resources. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:10 PM Flag
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perhaps you know little about giftedness. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:12 PM Flag
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Only what I learned about it in graduate school. As I said, most often what is argued about on this board is not true giftedness. (BTW, no sour grapes here: my kids are going to school outside the city and did not apply to gifted programs.) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:16 PM Flag
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no one really knows how many kids are actually gifted in these programs. so repeating that they are not over and over just starts to sound like bitterness or envy. why say this if you don't really know. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:21 PM Flag
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I told you what I do know: in my experience as a teacher, my formerly gifted students are no more accomplished than their non-gifted peers--and this is after 6 years of "special" education. What is bitter or envious about that? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:23 PM Flag
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All the more reason that G&T Programs (as opposed to, say, Anderson, which has higher requirements and standards, from everything I've read in reliable sources like insideschools.org) need to be given more leeway to beef up their curriculum so that gifted students can achieve their potential and develop the skills they are equipped to handle but aren't being taught because of either woefully inadequate teaching or a bar that's not set high enough. I am dismayed at your outlook as a teacher to dismiss students as "not gifted" because as adolescents in your non-gifted school they are not showing skills. They're probably bored to tears in your class and not trying because that's what adolescents do when they're not motivated by their teacher or interested in how she's teaching. You outed yourself as a less than stellar teacher with these comments. Signed, another teacher of middle school children who doesn't share your opinion. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 05:27 PM Flag
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a former teacher here and I agree with you. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.21.08, 12:41 PM Flag
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It's certainly possible that they're bored (although I believe I'm an excellent teacher and have the track record to show it), but these kids are going to have to cope with the mainstream at some point--life will not bend over backward just for them (and when I have 140+ students, I don't have time to customize lessons for everyone much as I would like to). If gifted education at the elementary level doesn't give these kids some coping skills, then what is the point? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.22.08, 07:30 AM Flag
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np: You are all over the place. You originally stated that the kids you see in your classes coming from G&Ts aren't gifted (except when in your capable hands because you're such an accomplished teacher) and now your concern is they're not able to cope? What is it? Not smart or can't cope? Your track record is what? Students with good grades? Good test scores? If they came from gifted programs they already had those? What do you accomplish with these students that you have to be proud of since you feel they can't survive after having you as a teacher because they don't have "coping" skills? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.22.08, 07:45 AM Flag
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^^I'm also a teacher and I don't have 140 kids at once. If I couldn't differentiate curriculum, I should find another career. Being able to meet the range of needs of my students is how I measure my skill as a teacher. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.22.08, 07:47 AM Flag
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Why shouldn't they excell - these should be future leaders, not more cogs in the wheel of society. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:18 PM Flag
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oooooh, them's fightin' words! And perhaps helps to explain all the hostility of which you speak. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 06:43 PM Flag
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AMEN!!! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 05:08 PM Flag
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"reliable sources like insideschools.org" you are joking right? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 08:29 PM Flag
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oy. typical ub response. someone actually has first-hand experience, but because i'm so convinced my dc is a genius, i am going to point fingers at the doe. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 05:06 PM Flag
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np. my dc tested as gifted and i agree with the teacher. it's pretty much bunk. testing a 4 y/o with flawed tests not meant to be used on dcs that age and expecting it to mean anything is silly. the dcs who are doing division in their heads at that age are obviously gifted. the ones who scored 99x3 on the erbs and their moms say, gosh, i had noooo idea! probably aren't. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:26 PM Flag
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I agree that not all are gifted, but we really have no idea how many are. so why keep repeating it? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:30 PM Flag
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Well.....we have a hugely underfunded program spending a lot of money on students who probably aren't receiving any benefit from it. Why wouldn't you want to repeat that? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:32 PM Flag
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because you denigrate the kids who are there and need it. also, the testing at least indicates that the kids most likely to make use of it at age 4-5 are getting it. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:34 PM Flag
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no one is denigrating the dcs. we are questioning a program that may or may not be identifying gifted dcs. why not wait until they are older to test? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 06:24 AM Flag
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because some kids being correctly identified early is better than none. You have no data to back your assumptions, so I think you must have some issue here. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 07:37 AM Flag
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actually there is data supporting the claim that the olsat was never designed to be used on 4 y/os. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 12:14 PM Flag
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no, the olsat was not originally validated in 4 yos, but now it has been. get over it. some kids did well on some tests and some on others, and some on all of them. its a fact, and the outcome is more often than not reasonable. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 12:34 PM Flag
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of course you are. when you say the kids in these programs aren't gifted (unfounded blanket statement)and they are there as a MC retention program effort, that is denigrating them. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 07:55 PM Flag
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NNP: How is the DOE spending a lot of money in gifted programs? They get funded the same as other schools/programs. It's not taking any money away from gen ed kids. And, since you brought up your dc, I'll bring up mine who tested gifted at 4 yo and still is in middle school. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:54 PM Flag
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people are envious and angry. they want to tear down public schools where their kids were not admitted. they [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 09:14 PM Flag
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all the kids there are benefitting from it, gifted or not. I think that is your problem, no? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 09:26 PM Flag
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gifted programs don't get more money than mainstream programs. that is a myth. htey don't get more or different anything unless parents fund it and administrators adn teachers think of it. which mostly they do not. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.08.09, 08:03 AM Flag
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If the 99x3 kids generally aren't gifted (according to you), I guess the 95s must be idiots. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 08:52 PM Flag
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lol! exactly. posters like this one who have an agenda, keep on saying this over and over with absolutely no real data [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 09:10 PM Flag
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Not all the kids in GTs are truly gifted. But they're overall pretty bright. Most of them are good at school. Most of them can go faster than other kids. No extra money is spent on them - not one penny. So why, other than competitiveness, begrudge them being grouped togetehr so they can go a bit faster and get less bored? Who is hurt? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.19.08, 09:30 PM Flag
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Labels or no labels, I would prefer my child to be among other bright, inquisitive kids vs. a class that includes dc who are lagging grade levels behind. It's a more exciting environment and more conducive to building a love of learning. Whether or not they average out in middle school, it will have built a good foundation. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 03:24 AM Flag
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ITA! these people who don't think G&T programs should exist are mostly bitter people who scream no fair everytime anyone gets anything good. I am sick of this menatlity in public. No one can have anything worth having because they feel it takes from someone else by just existing. it really is sick and out of control. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 05:09 AM Flag
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i'm not op and i'm not bitter. dc got into a g&t. and i'm not begrudging the dcs who test in. but what about the gifted dcs who don't test in? the fact is, the test is very flawed. some gifted dcs get in, some don't and some who get in aren't gifted. if it's going to truly be a program for gifted dcs, the procedure for identifying them should be improved. i vote for testing later. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 06:28 AM Flag
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That only hurts the kids who benefit from differentiated education early on (plenty of research to back this up). No system is perfect. Of course some will be in the wrong place, but many will end up where they should be. Better than nothing IMO. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 07:33 AM Flag
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testing later will not solve this problem. the programs need to serve the kids who can focus, answer questions and show their stuff from early on. I think the programs should be expanded more later to include kids who were not enriched early on, but who prove to be gifted at a later age. that would be better. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 07:42 AM Flag
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no one said 99x3 dcs generally aren't gifted. quit twisting my words. as for 95s being idiots, it's arguable that some are brighter than those who score 99s. the tests are flawed and the dcs are too young for the results to be meaningful. that's my point. i'm not envious and i'm not angry. dc is going to a g&t in the fall. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 06:32 AM Flag
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^^btw, no one but the nyc boe says dcs who score 90 on the olsat are gifted. fine to give them a spot, but then don't call the program a gifted program. say it's for reasonably bright dcs. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 06:34 AM Flag
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Well, 90 on ANY standardized test isn't really "gifted". The cut-off is 95. But, really, would they call a program Education for the Reasonably Bright (hey, it's ERB!)? No. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 06:58 AM Flag
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Most truly gifted dc's - not pg, but truly gifted -really need a special program. They don't just need it in third grade.They need it in K, 1, 2 and 3. The purpose of gifted programs is to help kids who would otherwise founder and have problems in a mainstream class. If you throw those kids back into the mainstream classes, you havent solved the problem at all. Why is this a solution? Honestly, the biggest problem is not the kids who are not identified, or even the kids who are misidentified, but that the programs don't offer enough enrichment or acceleration. There isn't enough expertise in teh system for gifted education, and once parents get into a gifted program, they feel they've won the lottery, and they never question anything or demand better. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 07:08 AM Flag
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i disagree about gifted dcs needing an accelerating k program. i think this is a natural assumption on the part of entitled nyc parents, but i don't think it's necessarily true. as for your contention that the program isn't as good as it could be, i don't disagree, but this is nyc public education. the scarce dollars have to be spent where they will do the most good for the most dcs. gifted dcs will do fine in a not-perfect g&t program or even a mainstream program, particularly if parents do the extra work to make sure they get enrichment outside the classroom. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 07:29 AM Flag
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Re the claim that we can't expect GT programs to be better because dollars are scarce: It doesn't take money to make them better. It takes expertise in gifted education, creativity, and commitment. If you have a gifted kid, and he's not coming home every day excited about what he learned, either you don't have a gifted child, or he's not in a program / class that's really gifted. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 07:50 PM Flag
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do you think anderson does a good job with this. have a gifted dc entering anderson in the fall, and it is obvious when dc is learning and engaged by the excitement level at the end of the day. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 08:00 PM Flag
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yes. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.21.08, 04:42 AM Flag
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I think Anderson works well for some kids, perhaps most kids, but there are some kids for whom it doesn't work. You'll know within a few months (if that long) which category your kid is in. if it doesn't seem to be working for your child the way it's working for other children, I would not assume, regardless of what you are told, that it will get better. Your kid should be excited about something she learned every day, because that is what gifted kids are like when they're learning. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.22.08, 07:09 AM Flag
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man, have you drunk the koolaid, or what? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.23.08, 07:45 PM Flag
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I have a dour child who is never excited. Seems to get into working and other things, but never seems joyful or excited. just the way dc is. still think anderson will be a good fit. dc is extremely smart though joyless by nature. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.24.08, 05:34 PM Flag
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NYC moms of gifted kids don't question anything? You must be mad! These are the nuttiest women on the planet! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 07:32 AM Flag
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are you always this concrete and perfectionistic? Who cares if every kid is truly gifted in these programs? They all benefit regardless, and its a good thing. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 07:39 AM Flag
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[ Removed by moderator ] [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 10:35 AM Flag
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frankly, very few have a hard time keeping up, if any despite the range. You are wrong. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 11:43 AM Flag
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of course there's no way to ensure a dc who tests well at 4 years old is truly a genius. i'm not suggesting that or demanding perfection. i do think there may be a way to make it better and more fair to all. as it stands it's a way for rich white dcs to have an advantage, whether they are truly gifted or not (a 90 is not). the changes to the process this year don't seem to have made a difference on that score. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 12:19 PM Flag
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np: OMG. The changes in the G&T this year were just because people complained that the rich white dcs have an advantage. How would you change this? The DOE now tests all kids in the system. The DOE lowered the bar to 90. Anything else? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 12:25 PM Flag
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the test gives an unfair advantage to dcs with well-off, well-educated parents. testing all dcs doesn't change that. however, if you waited to test for g&t, not only would it be more apparent who was really gifted, it might give disadvantaged dcs more of an opportunity at enrichment. we need to strengthen head start programs and work on other outreach to these dcs imo. we also need to make gen eds better in general in poorer neighborhoods. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 12:34 PM Flag
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many white, enriched kids did not get a decent spot this year. the smart kids got the best programs. sorry you cannot accept that. you fight for the disenfranchised only because you are pissed the system didn't work for your dc, and you don't want others to have anything if you can't. of course, fighting only for yourself would not fly, so you take up the cause. no system is perfect, but this one is about as fair as it gets. agree about outreach and headstart, but that is a separate issue. would also like to see expansion of existing G&Ts to accomodate kids who are more likely to test in later. otherwise, i like the system. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 12:41 PM Flag
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if you've bothered to read the thread, you would see that the system did work for me. dc is headed to a g&t in the fall. instead you choose to jump to conclusions. as for citywides, i have heard that anderson has plenty of umc dcs of color, particularly asians, but nothing about whether disadvantaged dcs are represented. have heard nothing about nest. tag is obviously a different story. the argument that district g&ts serve their community ignores the fact that many districts don't have g&ts or their g&ts are being taken away. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 02:30 PM Flag
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I think anderson and nest are diverse this year. I am not sure about class, but it seems to be a mix from the people I know. tag is more mixed as well, but largely from the nearby community. G&Ts in white nabes tend to be white, and in AA/H nabes AA/H. Asian G&Ts as well.. disadvantaged kids need to be helped way before they get to this process... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 03:26 PM Flag
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The DOE should add GT classes in the third grade to help out kids who don't test as gifted - which supposedly would include more disadvantaged kids (including more kids from immigrant families). Isn't this obvious? Don't cut what you have, add more later on. Duh. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 06:57 PM Flag
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those may be the kids most prepared for or able to utilize a G&T program. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 12:48 PM Flag
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actually, the citywides seem diverse, and the district G&Ts reflect the communities they serve. you are just making claims that are not true [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 12:36 PM Flag
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I agree. Plus many "gifted" kids also have a learning disability. For example I have a"gifted" level IQ. But I also have earning disabilities such as not being able to remember random sets of numbers. I can't remember phone numbers to save my life. A lot of my life is learning to work with what I have and have not. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:36 PM Flag
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np. perhaps your "gifted" dc just tests well. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 05:01 PM Flag
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could it be an overinflated "gifted"? what I mean is is that the focus is on autism, ADD, Asperger's etc so when a teacher sees a true "normal" child, they can be thinking "oh wow this kid is gifted? We were asked to have our child tested for the gifted program but we declined-we just think he is a normal bright child. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 06:44 AM Flag
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actually, they have no additional resources, they are given the same mediocre curriculum as the gen ed students (at least at my dcs school) and the same idiotic tests. I am not saying my children are gifted or not, but they are smart and the school does little to "enrich" them [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:17 PM Flag
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but the fact that the kids in your child's classroom are more or less intellectually equal is an advantage that you should notice [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:30 PM Flag
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My DH was in a gifted program 35 years ago or so. He started the program in 2nd grade in the 1st year the program began in his school district. However, it only went to 8th grade... after that it was back to regular school for his high school. He definitely suffered being put back into general ed. Major social anxieties that took several years for him to overcome. Not to mention he had already covered all the material already. (i.e. completed Calculus in 5th grade) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:38 PM Flag
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I am very sure those social anxieties were not caused by being put back into general ed. Please. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:40 PM Flag
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let me just say, that as a teacher this is coment is not a positive reflection on you. If my gifted elementary child ended up in your mainstream class i would be concerned as you seem to have an attitude about the entire program. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:41 PM Flag
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Then would you say the same is true of kids in incluesion programs? They shouldn't get the resources that they need for their education too? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.21.08, 07:50 AM Flag
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What about special needs kids? Do you think its fair that we pay for their theapy? Why is this okay but when kids from the other side of the spectrum get services people have a problem with this? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.21.08, 07:54 AM Flag
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Oh g-d you again....the reason that paying for therapy is necessary is because with it you get productive citizens and without it you get people who need help from the state. Paying for therapy for kids with disability makes simple economic sense. Now stop picking on the most vulnerable of our kids. You sound meaner than a snake when you do so. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.21.08, 08:26 PM Flag
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And you sound ignorant. So going by what you say it is conversely true that paying for more challenging curriculums for kids that need it help to keep those students engaged and staying in school. I have heard way too many times about kids dropping out of school because they were bored to tears. These kids are vulnerable too. You sound dumber than a door knob with your reasoning (or lack of). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.22.08, 09:00 AM Flag
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Wow. What a nasty woman you are--and you think the woman above is ignorant. I think she has a point. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.22.08, 07:34 PM Flag
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np: There is no point engaging with the above poster. Nothing anyone says is ever going to make a difference, and talking to her just gives her a platform. Ignore. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.22.08, 09:53 PM Flag
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So many people agree with me. Just look at how many people had their kids tested for G&T this year. While you may say that means nothing. It shows that people are waking up and that a one size fits all education is not the way to go. Excellence should be encouraged not mediocrity. The Gen Ed curriculum as it is now, dictates to the lowest common denominator. Kids who have learning disabilites should have special services and by the same token kids with exceptional aptitudes should be challenged and provided the resources to stay engaged. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.23.08, 07:45 AM Flag
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NP: many more people had their kids tested for G&T because the DOE marketed it and parents are eager to avoid under-performing gen eds. The curriculum in gen ed is EXACTLY THE SAME as that in G&T, only the peer group is different, and (sometimes) the teachers/administrators are better. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.25.08, 04:34 AM Flag
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Curriculum is not the same. I know, i have a kid at Nest. The classes are accelerated. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.25.08, 07:24 AM Flag
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Citiwide G&Ts are accelerated and don't care much if your kid can keep up or not (especially at NEST). District G&Ts follow the gen ed curriculum but the teachers are usually able to go deeper into a topic and have an easier time to teach because the children's intellectual capabilities are pretty even. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:40 PM Flag
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So you are calling me nasty for calling her dumb but you overlook that she called me "meaner than a snake" for having my opionion. You only see what you want. If I was touting her agenda and she mine you would be calling her the nasty woman. You are too transparent. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.23.08, 07:49 AM Flag
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if they drop out because of boredom I must say some of the blame goes to the parents [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:32 PM Flag
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I do think kids who are accurately tested to be in the top 2-3% need accelerated curriculum, but others don't necessarily "need" gifted curriculum. However, I think people want G&T program bec gen ed programs in most areas (not the $$$$$ zoned ones, I guess) are not good enough to keep the very bright kids engaged. Or parents hope their kids should be in a class with kids who tested well/prepped kids who will behave better... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.21.08, 12:55 PM Flag
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You have to understand "gifted" does not equal to "genius". [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 02:27 PM Flag
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I have an 18-year old Gifted son along with ADD, and Asperger's. These features are very commonly found together, and often result in the "cock-eyed genius" phenotype one associates with Bill Gates. My son needed to work with folks who understood his giftedness while accomodating his Aspergers' (autism-spectrum) issues such as social cluelessness. I can't stress enough what a shame it is when kids with such potential are treated as one size fits all...the self-confidence or lack thereof as a result of inadequate educational support will affect them all their lives. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 06:36 PM Flag
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ITA. A lot of gifted too develop unevenly and don't do well on the preschool tests. I think they should be tested later. 1st and 2nd grade would make more sence more than Kindergarten. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.10.09, 06:13 AM Flag
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People are falsely modest or in denial or scared or jealous or ignorant. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.20.08, 07:44 PM Flag
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I think people are hostile because of your attitude. You don't seem to want something for your child in addition to what others are getting instead you seem to want things at others expense. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.22.08, 07:33 PM Flag
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What are you talking about? Why is it at other's expense? We are all tax payers. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.23.08, 07:48 AM Flag
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praise the lord - ITA. unless you have a gifted kid, you can't remotely get it. and the parents are always ridiculed. if you have a kid on the other end of spectrum of giftedness - no one would dare criticize you for saying your kid needed a special school. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.24.08, 05:38 PM Flag
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I have a gifted kid (accd'g to tests, teacher comments etc) and I don't agree w/OP. Gifted does not equal special needs, unless there are co-existing emotional or behavioral or physical issues. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.25.08, 04:37 AM Flag
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It sure does. A gifted kid has a "special need" to be challenged accordingly and not left to flounder. I have heard storied about how teachers in Gen Ed use these kids to help the other kids in the class. I think that is well and good and teaches them to helpful and kind. But at the same time who is helping them? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.25.08, 07:27 AM Flag
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"Gifted" per DOE (90 on OLSAT) or technically gifted? Two different things. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:20 PM Flag
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To be considered gifted it has to be according to universally accepted testing...meaning Stanford Binet, WIISC etc... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:02 PM Flag
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I have a gifted kid and quite simply there is no way she could operate at her grade level. How does a 6 yo who reads at a 5th grade level function in a regular 1st grade class ? What would she do 6 hours a day in a classroom where she is working on stuff she was able to do when she was 4 ? Pray tell. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:00 PM Flag
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I have to confess I am hostile. I would have been considered "gifted" myself, as would many of my colleagues through the years. NY is filled with "gifted" people if you just use the criteria of above-average intelligence. To me a truly "gifted" person is an eight year old who is bored in third grade math because they're ready for calculus. Kids who are in Mensa. Otherwise, you are talking about a bright kid, which is great, but to call them "gifted" is a bit much. Every town in America has dozens of "gifted" kids in their towns. Now really, just how extraordinary can all these kids be? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:13 PM Flag
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np Gifted programs should only be for dcs scoring in at least the 98th percentile on IQ test. Offering gifted ed to kids with 90s is truly ridiculous and a waste of resources. Clearly done to make programs more diverse AND to keep middle and upper middle class whites in public school. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:19 PM Flag
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You guys can keep arguing about this left and right. Fact is that the G&T programs are a welcome addition to the NYC public school system that allows us with "bright" children to escape bad or less stellar zoned schools. There. That is the only reason why my children are in G&T programs. The "flawed" test does a good job to keep the class room on a homogeneous level and that usually results in excellent teaching. Who cares that it is called "gifted and talented?" Everybody knows this is crock. I bet even Klein does. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:26 PM Flag
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NP: You realize the fundamental problem with what your wrote, right? Why should YOUR child be entitled to an adequate education b/c based on a flawed test (which is biased against minority and poor children) he/she qualifies as "gifted" while other children are not? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:31 PM Flag
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a) the test itself is not biased against minorities or poor children - the reason why those are underrepresented in G&T programs goes way beyond this discussion and is much greater than the DOE ever can handle on its own. b) it's a lottery. if your child fits the profile that the G&T test lets through you and your child are lucky. Nothing wrong with that. Revamp the zoned publics and make sure everybody gets an equal chance on a good education you'll see the G&T can go back to its true purpose. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:35 PM Flag
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So you're OK with the public school system being flawed and inequitable, because your DC got "lucky"? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:47 PM Flag
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am I okay with it? Considering that I have 2 more kids that need to get lucky down the road I don't think so. It's something you just have to deal with. No matter if you like it or not. It's not going to change anytime soon if at all. It has been getting better over the last few years, though, and that is a good thing. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 12:49 PM Flag
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No, that is EXACTLY my point above. 98th percentile is not high enough. That is still tons of kids. My kids are in that zone. So are thousands of others. I'll bet half of Scarsdale fits that bill. To me, a truly "gifted" kid is a rocket-science genius type, and I would imagine that those kinds of kids do have special educational needs. But for all those other very bright kids--why do you need special programs to take them to the museum or introduce them to Tolstoy? Isn't that what parents are for? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 06:25 PM Flag
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So, you're saying Hunter is a pointless exercise? Because MOST of those kids are 98 or 99 (lots of 96s and 97s, too, actually). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 06:41 PM Flag
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Malcome Gladwell's new book "Outliers" had a whole chapter on a study of so called "gifted" kids long term - there was no difference in their achievements later in life from the norm - matter of fact they were markedly mediocre given their so called talent - it's a quick, fast, must read for all "gifted mom's". [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 01:08 PM Flag
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Wasn't the study from the 1920s? And didn't it show that “almost none of the genius children from the lowest social and economic class ended up making a name for themselves"? And what Gladwell is saying is that that children from wealthy/MC families are more likely to succeed than poor kids? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 06:36 PM Flag
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NO! Are you just making that up?? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 08:11 PM Flag
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reliable sources like insideschools.org [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 08:26 PM Flag
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If that what they said about Gladwell's book - they ain't so reliable...try reading it and not being so "smart" [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 08:31 PM Flag
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The study started in 1921. The study was done on California students - out of 250,000 they narrowed it down to 1,470 of the best of the best and then followed them their whole lives - the study was done by none other than our good friend Lewis Terman who WROTE the Sanford Binet test. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 08:29 PM Flag
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Isn't Gladwell's theory about class? That rich gifted kids do better than poor gifted kdis? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 08:52 PM Flag
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No - why is everyone guessing what it's about - just read the book. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 08:56 PM Flag
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ERB 99, SB etc does not mean GIFTED it means relative to the mean ---of who else is taking the test. worked with assessing children and administering IQ tests to children at Johns Hopkins...................very few of these kids are actually truly genius level IQ. They are capable and well prepared by their above average and successful parents. To be honest a poor kid from the Bronx with a teen age mom who scores the same as the child of banker may actually be far more exceptional in a relative sense [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 08:21 PM Flag
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Yes! Finally, someone who gets it!! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 08:33 PM Flag
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its amazing what the G&T programs have fostered..................truly they are corrupted. They are white washed politically correct avenues for people who are motivated to get their kids out of gen-ed. Truly fair G&T assessing who is gifted and talented would be to test kids in their own sociop [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 08:38 PM Flag
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Sorry computer issue: A truly fair system is the old fashion way. You would test kids in their existing schools and own socio-economi pools and the top 10% in a general public school would be pulled into specialized classes within their existing school. Poor disadvantaged kids will nearly always do worse relative to THE MEAN (not their mean) mean............... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 08:45 PM Flag
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If you're familair with IQ testing, how many IQ scores above 150 in SB-V have you seen? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 08:50 PM Flag
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actually its a complicated answer-- a fair number in and around that range. there are far more children who score high verbally than the other components of the test. verbal ability is the most plastic; the most coachable;the most outwardly affected by environment etc. the 148 threshold is rubbery--there arent enough kids in those ranges for good comps and there are other forms of the test to diagnose/assess truly "off the charts" kids [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.07.09, 09:09 PM Flag
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What do you mean by "a fair number"? Is it like 10% of 500 children you tested, or is it like 20% of 1000 children you tested? What do you think are the other forms of the test to diagnose/assess truly "off the charts" kids? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.08.09, 06:11 AM Flag
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Again you are totally confused. "Gifted" does not equal to "genius". [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.10.09, 01:26 PM Flag
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Many people are jealous that someone else may have a more intelligent child than theirs. I don't know why jealousy is so much more intense around brains than around athleticism, looks or talent, but it is. The parent of the gifted child is seen as saying her child is different and better. The topic kicks up anti-intellectualism and conformity values. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.08.09, 07:59 AM Flag
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You are totally projecting. The point is that people are saying their kids are "gifted" based on one random measure that doesn't mean anything other than they should be able to handle school. You are assuming that people are jealous when they are not - my dd is beautiful, a talented athlete, and scored in the 99th percentile. I'm just smart enough not to buy into the "gifted" thing. Anytime someone tells you exactly what you want to hear, you should be wary, that's how con artists do their job. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 10:13 AM Flag
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Amen! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 10:19 AM Flag
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np: You can believe what you want, but you should also allow other people to believe what they want. My dc was tested extremely gifted a few years ago. We had comprehensive tests done over the years and all confirmed the extreme giftedness in addition to extremely advanced mile stones. My dc has proven academically extremely advanced for the past few years and, luckily thrives in the challenging curriculum provided by our school. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 10:31 AM Flag
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Remind me again the definition of "extremely gifted". Also, I do allow people to believe what they want, but if you invite comments on UB you should be prepared to perhaps hear not exactly what you want. BTW - people won't tell you this to your face, they just think it quietly to themselves. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 01:02 PM Flag
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Extremely gifted means IQ score above 3 Standard Deviation, and academically several grades ahead of peers overall. In some areas that my dc was allowed to progress further, it is 6-8 years ahead which could have been more if we pursued. My dc is globally gifed, meaning extremely gifted in every category. Anything my dc tried, my dc quickly rises to the top national level. It sounds unbelievable, right? You have to see it to believe it, but it certainly exists. The rate with which my dc masters any material is like a joke, or like in a comic movie. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 01:43 PM Flag
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Well, if she's nationally ranked in anything -- or is that everything -- please be so kind as to offer a name and at least two websites that offer the results of her different talents. Say chess and mathematics? Gymnastics and debate? Drama and science? Anything, really, we're not picky. Examples are so helpful. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 01:47 PM Flag
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National ranking is just an example to show that it's not all in my imagination. Chess and math for the moment. It could be anything else since my dc does other things, but we haven't tried to get into competitions in other things my dc does. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 01:53 PM Flag
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Hey, my son competes nationally in chess, too. What's your daughter's name? Or just give me her rating and a few other identifying details, I'll take it from there, no one else here will have to know, but if you're telling the truth, I'll be the first to back you up. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 01:56 PM Flag
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Why are you trying to get my dc's name? I don't have to prove anything to you and I certainly do not "need" you backing me up. BTW, if your dc plays chess, it's likely that you have seen us in the chess circuit already. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:01 PM Flag
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You are right. I should accept your claims at face value. That's how all the gifted do it. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:03 PM Flag
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NP: If you don't have anything to prove to anyone, then why are you defending yourself? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:05 PM Flag
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This is getting tedious as usual as it happens typically whenever gifted issue comes up. No interest in pursuing further discussion. Bye. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:09 PM Flag
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I'm getting the feeling the OP is in a bit over her head. Her kid scored high and she drank the kool-aid, read a bunch of books on the gifted and is trying to prove that her kid is one of them. It's hooey - the more she writes the more you can tell. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:15 PM Flag
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This shows how stupid you're. You were not talking to OP, Ms. Know-it-all, not. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:18 PM Flag
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I was talking to the "group" involved in this discussion. (How stupid you're??) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:29 PM Flag
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yeah, right. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:35 PM Flag
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BTW, you're not expecting me to out my dc is here, are you? I'm certainly NOT going to "offer a name and at least two websites that offer the results of her different talents." Silly. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 01:57 PM Flag
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A child nationally ranked in chess and math 6-8 grades above her age would be pretty well known in both arenas, I'm sure she's already a national celebrity, what could outing her here hurt? (BTW: The national 8 and under chess champion is a boy, not a girl) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 01:59 PM Flag
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Tommy Polgar. Susan Polgar's son. See -- he's a celebrity in his field. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:01 PM Flag
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He's not #1 in his category. He's know as Susan Polgar's son. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:07 PM Flag
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I don't need to feed your uninvited scrutiny. What is your motivation for doggedly asking personal questions? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:05 PM Flag
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To mess with you and prove that you're lying. What's your reason for defending yourself so vociferously? If your child is truly brilliant we'll all hear of her soon enough. At the rate you're chronicling her astronomical development, can't you wait another 20 minutes or so to boast publicly? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:09 PM Flag
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How did you prove that I am lying? I am lying because I'm not stupid enough to divulge my dc's personal info on anon board? Tacky...Bye. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:12 PM Flag
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Then what is the problem? You think people are hard on you? If the kid is globally gifted then the kid is globally gifted, BUT you must recognized that there is a whole universe of parents out there calling their child gifted because of high ERB and SB scores. The guy who wrote the test doesn't even think it means they are special - just that they are smart enough to well in school. Of course - I'm not talking about your child. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 01:59 PM Flag
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I just want to say that not all of gifted claims are bogus. It's just mind boggling to see how ignorant and hostile people are towards gifted children. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:15 PM Flag
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No one is hostile towards the child and you know it. They are hostile toward the parents who for some reason need to prove that their child is superior and these people are EVERYWHERE! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:20 PM Flag
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I'm the living proof that people are hostile towards gifted children and their parents IRL. You have to endure other people's jealousy, envy and all sort of irrational behaviors from them. Bascally, as it happens on UB, they want to just smother you and your children. So, we do our best to stay unnoticed. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:27 PM Flag
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They smother your child on UB??? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:32 PM Flag
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Don't take it so literally. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:37 PM Flag
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I'm just trying to understand your point. It seems to me you have a hard time differentiating between you and your child. I didn't mean it literally...I feel like I am speaking out on behalf of the the child - "Don't do this to me, Mommy" [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 03:44 PM Flag
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You're imagining things. I was trying to say that people are jumping all over you so that you go away. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 03:50 PM Flag
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Just because they don't say exactly what you want to hear. There is excellent information provided to you on this Post and yet you still are being somehow "victimized". [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:14 PM Flag
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Finally. A bit more sly than others? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:22 PM Flag
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Who's snarky now?? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:24 PM Flag
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I didn't say exactly what you want to hear? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:26 PM Flag
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You've lost your mind...at first I thought you were maybe legit but confused...now...I'm wondering... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:38 PM Flag
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Can't be legit... must be lying... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:42 PM Flag
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You should have then said, "Not all gifted claims are bogus, my child is blah, blah, blah and this is our experience." You invite the hostility. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:22 PM Flag
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I am not claiming other people's claims are definitely bogus either. How do I know? The post said "people blah, blah, blah..." I just tired show at least one case where it's not bogus. Anyway, it's getting so boring. I'm done with this. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:30 PM Flag
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You have not made one single valid argument to support your cause. I'll leave you with that. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:41 PM Flag
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my dc is like that...don't bother...they won't get it [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:07 PM Flag
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I think it still does something. UB folks were much, much more hostile towards gifted issues a few years ago when I started posting here. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:17 PM Flag
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Anytime you start a thought with "people are just jealous..." you should be very, very careful. Not a great start, probably the wrong use or the word, and a nearly sure sign of your feeling threatened and referring to categorical assumptions. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 10:22 AM Flag
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Sorry, the wrong use OF the word (meaning envy rather than jealousy). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 10:23 AM Flag
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One important thought to note - Because of the Internet, the time of the lonely genius with goggles and test tubes working away in a lab is over. Great strides are going to made by groups of people working together, advances are going to happen as a result of a joint effort. It is imperative that kids learn how to fit in and work with others for them to succeed. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:26 PM Flag
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Lonely genius is just another cliche. Geniuses have many talents. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 02:35 PM Flag
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One of them had better be "working well with others" or two "smart enouphs" are going to blow him away in a comic funny sense or however you refer to it. There are no Einsteins anymore...the future will collaborative. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 03:47 PM Flag
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Are you implaying that Einstein worked all by himself in a dark corner? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 03:52 PM Flag
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Didn't say "dark" didn't say "corner"....I said lone. It's un-debatable that his theories are his own. Don't trivialize the argument for the sake of being superior. Genius in the future will be collaborative...just think about it. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:19 PM Flag
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Geniuses have been collaborative already. How do you think people get Nobel prizes? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:24 PM Flag
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They aren't all geniuses. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:43 PM Flag
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Who do YOU think Geniuses are? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 04:45 PM Flag
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So you are saying that people who have won the Nobel prize scored in the category of super gifted or whatever you have been calling it? Globally gifted? Can you at least tell us where you are getting your information? You haven't made one single point that made any sense. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 05:57 PM Flag
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Are you saying there is a correlation between say kids in Hunter/Anderson and winning awards such as Nobels?? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 06:00 PM Flag
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It was a rhetorical question - there is no correlation between super high genius-level IQ and success in life - Not in any field or any study. There is a correlation between great success and hard work... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 07:04 PM Flag
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You're confused about success and genius. Many geniuses were not even successful during their life time. Many of them were acknowledged only decades after their death. No matter how hard you work, a person with average IQ does not become a genius. Being successful at certain things does not make a genius, like successful baker is not a genius. You are completely confused. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.11.09, 09:04 AM Flag
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Wow - really??? "Geniuses have many talents." Now that's genius... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 06:13 PM Flag
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My god, people! Let this post go. Please! I'm only adding to it, because it appears necessary in order to try to talk everyone into a pact. Let. It. Die. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 06:02 PM Flag
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C'mon it's so much fun watching the poor mother-of-the-genius squirm... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 06:11 PM Flag
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she really wants her child to be SPECIAL [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 06:55 PM Flag
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but she can't even convince us.... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 07:05 PM Flag
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Zzzzzzzzzz... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.09.09, 06:13 PM Flag
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Gifted does not equal Genius. Genius means your kid is writing calculus theories at 9, not learning calculus at 9. Genius is writing symphonies, not playing the piano. Genius is knowing every prime number, not being able to idenify prime number. We should encourage and give special funding to geniuses. They are special. We should also encourage smart kids. 99 percent of NYC is either average or smart or underaverage. 1 percent is genius. A genius should not be in GT education. A smart kid should. I really don't see the need at 5 for GT but whatever. Test the kids once in a while, make the test universal to everyone and make the curiculium accelerated. Your kid can't keep up, back to general education. Still confused on why this needs to cost more money. Smart isn't a special need, genius is. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.10.09, 02:18 AM Flag
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This is just wrong in so many ways. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.10.09, 11:20 AM Flag
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Could you please give SPECIFIC examples of kids who are 9 years old writing calculus theories, symphonies, etc...it's a lot less than 1% and they shouldn't get special funding. Why should public funds be wasted for one in a million when millions are in need of education? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.10.09, 11:26 AM Flag
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Fine, less than 1%...I meant to say that genius is rare. Gifted is wide range. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.10.09, 12:03 PM Flag
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np You clearly have no idea what you're talking about to say that anywhere near 1% of the pop is "genius". Tiny, tiny fraction at the top of the 99th percentile. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.11.09, 09:47 AM Flag
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G&Ts do not cost more money at all. What costs money is having to test every child in NYC public schools but you support that. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.10.09, 11:57 AM Flag
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