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07.15.08, 09:11 AM NY Schools
58 replies
Since this years G & T testing was a bust in terms of leveling the playing field & getting low-income kids in, how do you think they will change admissions so it isn't a UMC relief program? [ Reply | Watch | Flag ]
NY Schools 07.15.08, 09:11 AM Flag
 

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my question is, how do you know it was a bust succeeding in meeting the goal you describe? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:15 AM Flag
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I really don't think that's the ultimate goal. I think the goal was to create a system of admissions that could withstand lawsuits. They've standardized the process citywide and acheived universal access to the tests which was the biggest stumbling block in the past. Some may say they're concerned about the skew to UMC, but I really don't think the lawyers or Klein truly care about that. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:18 AM Flag
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Every interview I have ever heard him give belies that opinion. I can't see into his heart but his actions and his words both suggest he really does want to make the G&T system (and good education in general) more egalitarian. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:30 AM Flag
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np: but the fact is that dcs with educated parents and access to quality preschool/daycare are as a group going to do better on those tests. Unless you can level the playing field PRIOR to K, G&T will always be skewed towards the UMC. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:36 AM Flag
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But...unless Klein/DOE can come up with a way to make that happen that inures the process from lawsuits it ain't gonna change. He may feel bad, but his bottom line is to protect the DOE and the city from the multi-million dollar lawsuits that were won against other cities over G&T admisssions. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:40 AM Flag
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this is bs. we are headed to anderson, and at the orientation, it was clear that the K class represented diversity on many levels. I think we all may just be surprised at the level of diversity achieved with this process. of course district programs will be more likely to reflect the district, but for citywides in particular, the class does not look like umc largely [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 04:11 PM Flag
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Thanks to the lovely , friendly folks at the g&t this year's incoming K class at Anderson was the most visually and geographically diverse by far. They know neighborhoods and whom is likely to live there. This has been complete bs and some of the hard selling they've done on the phone, trying to talk disgruntled parents of non-placed 99s was actually quite inappropriate. Incoming parents' professions, races and other details were mentioned(advertised). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 04:40 PM Flag
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*sorry*.. were mentioned, in relation to the "up and coming' district programs that parents were left with, didn't choose and were being offered, etc. And there is more. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 04:42 PM Flag
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what on earth are you talking about? Your post is not understandable. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 05:53 PM Flag
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I am saying 'Blind Schmind"; The diversity of the incoming K class at Anderson is not a pure outcome of a blind process;I am saying that some persistent parents of kids whom scored 99, yet did not get citywide seats, were very actively in communication w/ the g&t office. The variety of outright brokering that did in fact occur was truly absurd. The process is a sham. That's what I'm saying... We did well but too many were failed in this process. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 08:00 PM Flag
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NP: You are claiming there was brokering of citywide seats by OSEPO? What drugs are you ON? This is the most absurd thing I have read on UB in a long time. Please provide some evidence to back up this specious claim. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.16.08, 03:41 AM Flag
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agree -- don't make such claims unless you are prepared to offer concrete evidence that proves your point. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.16.08, 10:33 AM Flag
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look, no matter what 'evidence" she offers, she proves nothing. there is no way she could prove that 50 kids were brokered into any school. the paranoia generated by this process is mind boggling. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.16.08, 03:31 PM Flag
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I know of no brokering for citywide seats and didn't mean to infer any such thing; Although I don't believe that the process was a random group of 99s, devoid of attention to districts or geography. I was solely referring to some options- district- offered as appeasement to parents of some unplaced kids which had not been listed on their g&t applications. One parent posted here last month. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.16.08, 08:27 PM Flag
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that doesn't mean that the process wasn't by and large random. maybe citywides are diverse because there were kids in the lotto from all over? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.17.08, 02:44 PM Flag
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where is dc going? are you d6 mom/ did they finally give you a good d3 seat? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.16.08, 03:38 PM Flag
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We're going to a progressive and no; I'm not a d6 parent. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.16.08, 08:31 PM Flag
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huh? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 07:01 PM Flag
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grow up. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 08:03 PM Flag
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That may be goal of the overall education system, but G&T is not egalitarian by any means, since IQ does correlate with income and socio-economic status. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:38 AM Flag
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We can argue over whether that correlation makes the system egalitarian or not but I don't think you can disagree that, within the framework at hand -- he has done a lot (more than anyone else) to make the system more open and equitable. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:54 AM Flag
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Hello Mrs. Klein, I'm sorry; it must be just awful to defend his terrible lack of competence and fitness for chancellorship. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 02:33 PM Flag
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I wondered where the status quo was... where've you been all day? Out doing nothing? We missed you. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 02:37 PM Flag
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Mwah.Mwah. I'm just popping in and right out; Missed you too... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 04:17 PM Flag
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...but seriously, I held back as long as I could on this but had to poke my nose in for a quick jab. I can't really get into this a a umc or not issue. There are simply too few good schools -period and the G&T fiasco this year was so costly, in so many ways, to so many. It's been so gross...I don't see it getting better. My kid has been graded, assessed, evaluated and blabetyblah as pg. AND? I am a big supporter of inclusion. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 04:27 PM Flag
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Fair enough (and I suspect Joel Klein would love to see fewer/no G&Ts but is unable to do that. Partially it would be political suicide and partly he needs to respect that he is a public servant.) BUT if you are going to have a G&T system in NYC -- I think the one Joel Klein has moved toward and has as his goal is a better and more fair one. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 04:39 PM Flag
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Klein is completely indifferent to the middle class. He does not care where the kids go to school or whether they go to school with each other only or with disadvantaged kids. He sees his job as helping the vast majority of underprivileged kids. The mc kids are irrelevant to that. The GT policy is a protection against lawsuits, and is the kind of centralization he likes since he thinks most people in the system who arent his people are idiots. (Although there is no evidence so far to indicate that his people are less idiotic than anyone else in teh system.) Other than lawsuits, it's hard to see what he hopes to accomplish with the big changes. Sibling policies in GTs mean more segregation by neighborhood. And siblign policies in citywides - especially since they only apply in district - seem really segregation-friendly. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 08:04 PM Flag
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I agree with above but would add, it seemed like last year was transitional all along. The goal is universal (or near universal) testing of K kids for G&T. That will do a lot to make the population more like the city's population. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:18 AM Flag
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Not any more, universal testing is off the table now due ot budget issues. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:39 AM Flag
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I think it's going to be universal testing by request. It won't be automatic for K students in 2008-2009 as proposed initially. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:41 AM Flag
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by request is not what I'd call universal, and it was by request this year too [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:43 AM Flag
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Well it's universal in the sense that it's free and available for the asking, just not automatic as originally proposed. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:45 AM Flag
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It is still the goal, no? Might not be implemented next year but that doesn't take away from the credit he deserves fro making it the goal. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:43 AM Flag
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Not sure, there was a fair amount of backlash from people not wanting to have their kids tested. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:55 AM Flag
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I think it is fair to allow parents to opt out. Hell, to not allow that would be gross. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:58 AM Flag
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np: interesting. why? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 12:50 PM Flag
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I'm guessing they'll change it in the low-income nabes to let in the top 5 or 10% kids (compared with their peers, not nationwide %iles). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:20 AM Flag
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Even when there was no cut-off many of these programs did not have enough kids to fill them so I don't think that is a solution. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:39 AM Flag
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Whats your plan? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:46 AM Flag
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If the goal is to make more lower-income and diverse dcs eligible for G&T universal preK and ideally also high quality 3s preschool options are the only answer IMO. Without the enrichment, those kids are too far behind to score well enough already. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:54 AM Flag
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the goal is to fill the seats with qualified children. Not to make g&t more lower income or diverse. That said, another goal was to get the word out about testing to groups that might not be in the loop (i.e. lower socio/economic groups. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:58 AM Flag
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I will get flamed, but here goes. NYC public school starts in K (actually first, but another issue). I don't believe it is the job of the nyc public school system to have universal prek or preschool for 3's. It starts in K. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:59 AM Flag
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Right now it is not, but I think school would benefit if it changed. As it is there is way too much of a gap between kids coming in and getting the group that is behind to catch up is costly and those kids learn to hate school from day '1'. It is sad to be considered a dummy for not knowing the alphabet when nobody ever taught you. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 10:18 AM Flag
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imo, it IS their responsibility to provide the same quality of education to ALL learners from K on. Failing that- which they have, do and will continue to do, leaves our kids spending even more school hours preparing for yet another mandated test, another thief of a school experience designed by an inept, numbers driven (dis)Organization.. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 04:35 PM Flag
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I disagree - becuase of new criterioa this past year many programs in low income nabes are being closed (programs that were running and filled when they were allowed to take the top 10% of kids in neighborhood). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 10:06 AM Flag
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how do you know it was a bust? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:43 AM Flag
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90 and above were granted district seats; What changed? Not much in terms of improving most district programs-but 2 programs I know of, with kids to fill them- were closed. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 07:32 PM Flag
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They may have changed things, but the plan was to test ALL K students starting next year. That should help [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:45 AM Flag
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I'll add, the plan was described to me as: initial test of all K children. If child scores high enough, contact parents of said child and say your child scored high and should probably take test for g&t if you want. Then parents decide. I like that idea. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 09:47 AM Flag
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that is about what I heard. Bracken for all, OLSAT for high scorers [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 12:48 PM Flag
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I'm also not sure about the forcing kids to take the test aspect - in Brooklyn, if dc was in private pre-K, parents had to go out of their way to register and bring kid to take the test. Where was it automatically administered? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 02:08 PM Flag
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They said all kids in public pre-K were going to get the Bracken. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 02:10 PM Flag
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i predict they will do away with the bracken. too easy to cheat now. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 04:21 PM Flag
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G&T was created to be a UMC relief program; now they're trying to figure out how to open it up more without it costing more. If they just opened up G&T Kindergartens in boroughs other than Manhattan, this wouldn't have been an issue. They let us all to believe they'd create G&T seats based on need, but they didn't. So, hundreds and hundreds of kids who scored above 90 (and even 97) had no place to go locally and there weren't enough citywide seats to meet demand. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.16.08, 12:27 AM Flag
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G&T actually is older than the middle class. It dates back to just after the end of the Civil War. It got a huge push after Sputnik (1957/58(?)). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.16.08, 03:44 PM Flag
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in NYC? I think G & T in a major urban metropolis is very different from elsewhere in the US. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.16.08, 04:29 PM Flag
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I googled to check if I was right, the first G&T was in St Louis. (I was right.) First school devoted to G&T was in Wooster, Mass. in 1901. Interesting site with timeline: http://www.nagc.org/index.aspx?id=607 [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.16.08, 07:14 PM Flag
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I was talking about the current incarnation of the G&T programs in Manhattan, especially districts 2 and 3. They were funded as magnet programs in the 1970s and 1980s to stem the tide of UMC moving out of NYC and taking their tax revenue with them. The public school system was on the verge of collapse. I'm not talking about the pedagogical process of tracking students through different programs (some had honors labels, or SP - which was a program of skipping a jr high school grade, etc.) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.17.08, 05:23 AM Flag
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