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07.13.08, 19:25 PM NY Schools
64 replies
Just ran across this while doing a search: some like to say the olsat is faulty, and sb is the true test. also say that lower scores by some kids owe to the fact that they are divergent out of the box creative thinkers. as if scoring a 95 makes you divergent compared to a 98. then there are those who think only sb measures creativity. truth is it doesn't. sure you get partial credit for a not so good answer, but it cannot be some creative fantasy or anything. its more like saying a table and chair are similar because they have 4 legs (1 point response) vs. they are both furniture (2 pt response). the latter answer shows a greater ability to abstract, whereas the former shows a lesser ability...not creativity. if a kid were picking the lower score response over and over because of their "divergent thinking", they would not even make the cutoff and get to the onsite with the SB. all total bunk.[ [ Reply | Watch | Flag ]
NY Schools 07.13.08, 07:25 PM Flag
 

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Where did you find this info? Link please [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:30 PM Flag
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She is taking one example and extrapolating. It is not totally true & the OLSAT does often test creatively smart dc lower (Maybe by 3 or 4 points, but that can make a difference in the cut off) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:32 PM Flag
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dc got a 97 on olsat, but a 99 on sb. perhaps that is why. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:34 PM Flag
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Who knows, but those scores, in the end, are not really different. IMO, the biggest issue with the OLSAT was often the tester [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:36 PM Flag
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ITA! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:37 PM Flag
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I agree, but this is even more true for the erb/sb [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:37 PM Flag
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Not at all - those tests are administered by trained psychologists, not any random teacher wanting to make a buck on Saturday. I do agree that the tester can make a difference for all these tests, thus the popularity of a certain Hunter tester, but the DOE test was so unevenly administered - it was absurd [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:40 PM Flag
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np: the olsat is less corruptable. the teachers are supposed to read a script, and the kids answer from multiple choice items. hardly rocket science, and all teachers have experience working with kids. as for trained psychologists, well, the tests are pretty easy to administer. i know, I give them. I think the popular testers for sb are not those who are tecnically gifted in the art of delivering similarities. they are the ones who promt the kids beyond what is allowed in order to give the best score possible. the olsat is far more objective in its administration. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:44 PM Flag
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np. ita [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:52 PM Flag
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ditto. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 08:08 PM Flag
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tritto [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 08:21 PM Flag
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Not at all, the you should have seen some of those teachers. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 05:46 AM Flag
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what? not dressed to your liking? give me a break! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 07:43 AM Flag
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No parents saw the OLSAT being administer, right? So what do you base this on? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 11:26 AM Flag
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her dc's poor score? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 01:30 PM Flag
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They met the teachers & the unwashed high looking young man did not impress my dh. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 06:43 AM Flag
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these scores are not statistically significantly different on the olsat. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:46 PM Flag
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Ditto. have a super bright, verbal, creative kid who scored a 97. it bugs me that all these parents with kids scoring 99 got better placement, and think their kids are superior. If you met my dc, you would think she is very very smart. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 08:05 PM Flag
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It bugs me that they think their dc are superior to any dc who scored 90 or above [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 05:46 AM Flag
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It bugs me that they think their dc are superior to any dc. Period. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 11:24 AM Flag
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oh, please! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:35 PM Flag
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and where did you get *that* info from? Link please. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 08:24 PM Flag
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it was a response by a poster who was responding to an anderson mom who felt that lower scoring kids were really just more creative, out of the box kids. copied it, but not sure I could find it again. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:33 PM Flag
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But they won't be in Anderson, so why would she say this? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:35 PM Flag
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I think it was a post about last year. many kids with low scores got in via the onsite. someone argued the lower scores were better since it was related to the divergent thinking of these kids. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:36 PM Flag
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Ah, possibly & thus they aced the onsite IQ test. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:37 PM Flag
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onsite was hardly an IQ test. dc described it to me in detail. a test of sorts, yes, but not an IQ test. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:39 PM Flag
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this whole "divergent thinker" bull is just that -- bull. the kids are smart and some are creative, but the onsite, imo, doesn't specifically look for out of the box thinkers, whatever that means. the onsite picked kids who the administration thought would do well at the school -- just like hunter and the privates do. signed, current anderson parent. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 07:47 AM Flag
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what makes a good fit for the school? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 01:16 PM Flag
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who knows? ime, there isn't a specific type at anderson -- some kids are outgoing, some more quiet, some "active", some very well behaved. all seem really smart to me, and all seem very verbal and thoughtful (as in, insightful) -- but i would imagine that most schools that are handed a pre-selected group of kids (or pick their own, as in previous years) would have similar types of kids. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 06:31 AM Flag
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lower score response over and over because of their "divergent thinking", they would not even make the cutoff and get to the onsite with the SB. all total bunk. Kids scoring 97+ must have had some of the usual thinking in order to score that high. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:31 PM Flag
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When my 4 yo took the SB, he was asked what does incapable mean? He said, if Batman didn't wear a cape, he would be incapable. That's a good answer for a 4 yo; it shows the child recognized prefixes (in), can intelligently "attack" the meaning of an unknown word, knows that "able" is an adjectival suffix, and can use the word correctly in terms of what part of speech it is in a sentence. I wouldn't call that a creative answer, but I'd call it an answer that shows advanced verbal ability. On the OLSAT, which is multiple choice, there isn't necessarily any way to show that kind of advanced verbal ability. And as the previous poster pointed out, getting one or two answers wrong on the OLSAT can make you lose points. On the SB, you have to fail at several qustions or tasks on any given level, before you get "points" off. No test for this or any age group is perfect. But SB is better than OLSAT for identifying gifted. No one else in the entire country uses OLSAT for gifted testing. Hmm. Wonder why. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:47 PM Flag
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your dc's answer would not earn him any points. if he answered all the items in this way, he would get a low score. so even if its interesting how he came up with his answer, it is meaningless in the world of testing. he would have to get enough correct answers (or high point answers) in order to score highly enough to have a shot at a good school. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:54 PM Flag
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NP - If he answered all of the questions this way, it would mean one of two things: (a) he has a lousy vocabulary, and therefore isn't terribly smart, or (b) he is uncooperative. Neither makes him particularly well-suited for a challenging program, either in public or private. (And anyway, how do you know what your kid said in response to a question on the SB?) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 11:14 AM Flag
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99olsat 99 sb dc but olsat is quack. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:39 PM Flag
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and mommy is illiterate [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:45 PM Flag
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you are just jealous. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:46 PM Flag
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of what? our dcs have the same stats, but saying olsat is quack is either some form of UB speak, or the person has difficulty expressing herself. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:49 PM Flag
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Divergent can be thought of as off beat. An example of it might be a question asks which one of four things is different. The things are: a cow, a pig, a kangaroo and a chair. Most people would say the chair is different because it's not an animal. A divergent answer would be the kangaroo is different because it doesn't have four legs. Or the kangaroo is different because it ends with a vowel. Or the kangaroo is different because it's the only item that can only be found in Australia. The OLSAT would mark that wrong. But most of us would be pretty impressed if our four year old gave us that answer. That is one of the big weaknesses of the OLSAT. Gifted kids will often approach a subject or a question from an angle that you don't expect and to penalize them for it on a test to identify gifted kids is massively nutty. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 07:56 PM Flag
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I have PG dc, and he would pick the chair. he might then go on to expound on the rest, but he would always know what the answer is. All kids are creative. its the lovely part of childhood. When our own dcs give answers like you have listed, we think "how smart," but a truly smart kid gets what is being asked. np, btw. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 08:01 PM Flag
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my gifted dc would pick the chair as well. it's obviously the correct answer. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 06:36 AM Flag
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NP - Absolutely agree. 99 ERB/99 SB kid would also say chair. If asked, or given the opportunity, she might offer up one of the other ideas - but she would start out by saying the chair. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 11:16 AM Flag
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agree completely. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 11:18 AM Flag
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^^^and dc is at anderson and is very creative. but still, dc would not make something more complicated than it has to be, just because -- a straightforward question deserves a straighforward response. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 11:19 AM Flag
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OR from above: the dc in your example would get no points on either the olsat or the SB. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 08:03 PM Flag
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97 SB but 99 OLSAT here. How do you explain that? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.13.08, 08:24 PM Flag
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. Truly gifted kids do NOT always know what the expected answer is. Kids who are good at test-taking always intuit what the tester wants. All kids are NOT creative. People who actually go on to come up with new ideas, may or may not be good test takers. They may or may not intuitively know what the expected answer is. The idea that gifted = knows how other people think/knows what is expected is upside down. If you don't believe me, look up what gifted characteristics are on any of the gifted websites. Ask any teacher or administrator at Hunter. Ask anyone who adminsters the SB. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 05:36 AM Flag
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SB is harder to get a high score on than OLSAT BUT for some kids who are very smart but think in a quirky way, kids who pick the kangaroo instead of the chair, it will be easier to score high on SB than on OLSAT. A SB tester would probably say kangaroo, interesting... kid would say it's the only one that ends with a vowel.. SB teacher would note how observant kid is re language and give kid a similar question - and yes, maybe she's give a little prompt, like this time make your choice based on the type of thing it is or what it does... that's not cheating; thats giving enough information so kid knows what you are looking for. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 05:44 AM Flag
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psychologist here: if the tester is giving points after the dc answers incorrectly, and after much prompting, they are doing it incorrectly, and in essence, cheating. It is likely the reason that so many kids get very high scores in nyc with the "better" testers. If a dc can only come up with an answer with the allowable prompting, it should result in a lower score for that item. A bunch of those would result in a lower overall score. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 07:45 AM Flag
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i asked our SB tester from a few years ago -- a tester who i think has the rep for giving higher scores -- whether a child would score differently with a different tester. she said, in a vacuum, no -- that the test is supposed to be administered according to strict guidelines across the board, that checks are done across testers to ensure the accuracy of results and adherence to the administration guidelines, and despite what parents may think, the results from these checks typically support the consistent administration of the test across the board. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 07:55 AM Flag
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ITA, but I do think that certain testers are better with kids, therefore, it can mean a point or two difference that can mean the cutoff or not. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 07:56 AM Flag
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yes, i agree with that, but given that a two or three point differential isn't considered "inconsistent", my point holds. that said, a cutoff has to be set at some number, and whether a child likes a tester could ultimately determine whether that child makes the cutoff or not. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 07:59 AM Flag
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the checks do not control for the amount of prompting given in the testing situation. some testers give more than is allowed, and do not write what they did on the answer sheet. the answer sheet is what is reviewed. the tester could write only the final answer and not report the prompting. I have been giving these tests for a long time, and I am very sure that this goes on regularly. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 08:38 AM Flag
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see post below -- are you now questioning the process that screens prospective hunter and (past) anderson applicants? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 11:23 AM Flag
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lol! you sound like a believer. Nothing to be done with blind faith in a system. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 01:03 PM Flag
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you need to have a bit of trust in the system if you're going to play -- otherwise, you should be sending your child to your local zoned school, and not even bother with privates or application-based publics. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 06:34 AM Flag
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supposed to be, is the key phrase here. not happening irl though [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 08:45 AM Flag
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you are being suspicious of a process that has been in place for years just to be suspicious -- you have no actual proof of anything happening that is not sanctioned by those who oversee the SB administration to prospective hunter and (in the past) anderson applicants. many of these "easy" SB testers have been on the hunter approved list for years -- do you mean to say that the whole process for screening prospective hunter and (again, in the past) anderson applicants is flawed? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 11:22 AM Flag
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of course it is. there are many variables to this. testers get paid for this, and prefer to be desirable among other testers, they also have private pracices and do testing and treatment for a living. know more than a few in treatment with some of these folks. being popular pays off big there. too many kids score highly, many of whom are not gifted. so, yes, this process, and any trying to assess 4 yos is flawed. what's new. i am not against having these systems, but nor do I see any one method as being flawless. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 12:47 PM Flag
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you are not implying that the system is flawed -- you are implying that it's corrupt. i agree with the former but not the latter. the testing process isn't perfect, but given the success of the many schools that have in the past used and currently use a test-based system for admissions, iwould just say that the proof is in the pudding. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.15.08, 06:36 AM Flag
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two scores are consistent -- a two point difference is not statistically significant. (says a SB tester who said the three point difference between dd's SB and ERB score is not relevant in the world of testing.) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 06:36 AM Flag
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Only in the world of "We have to make the cutoff somewhere" [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 06:42 AM Flag
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99 olsat with super creative kid here - I agree that there might be variables due to the tester or the weather or how much sleep the child got or if they were sick or if their dog died - but that would be true of any test they take be it SB or SAT or Regents, etc. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 07:26 AM Flag
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well, of course -- but the results themselves are consistent in that both support the view that the child who receives them is very bright. but yes, the cutoff is the cutoff -- nothing can be done about that. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.14.08, 07:57 AM Flag
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