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07.10.08, 19:33 PM NY Schools
71 replies
Here are my solutions to the NYC public school issues (G&T, in particular): 1) Eliminate citywides. 2) Develop K-8 G&Ts in all boroughs/districts. 3) Re-instate catchemnt policy to match newly re-instated sib policy. 4) Eliminate lotteries. All of these changes will keep kids local, with gifted and gen ed options which will improve QOL and decrease congestion and pollution, thus using less resources and maximizing community and family life. [ Reply | Watch | Flag ]
NY Schools 07.10.08, 07:33 PM Flag
 

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wow! genius! ITTTA! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:36 PM Flag
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Are you sure you live in NYC? This will NEVER happen! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:37 PM Flag
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but it should. all this screaming about what is fair needs to be shut down. the best way is to eliminate all the options to send your kid elsewhere. then people with resources will either move to the burbs if they don't like what is locally available, or work to improve the school. makes no sense to keep trying to accomodate. people just get more and more angry and entitled. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:43 PM Flag
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ITA! people are splitting hairs over whose kid is more intelligent, threatening to form vigilante groups, threatening to sue DOE for any policy that wasn't announced and signed off in blood. DOE should just stop trying to ship people out of their zones, and offering all this opportunity to go elsewhere. that way, people will have to help local school, build local gifted programs, and STFU. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:55 PM Flag
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almost any family that could afford to move, would do just that. as a matter of public policy, for the city as a whole, a massive exodus of the middle/upper middle class would be a complete disasater - the tax rolls would be decimated, so every single service in the City would be cut to the bone and the only people left at first would be those who could afford to insulate themselves (who would leave soon after - not wanting to live in a City with once a week garbage collection) and those who couldn't afford to leave. G&Ts may not be the best educational policy, but letting the middle/UM classes leave would be a nightmare for everyone who was left. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:03 PM Flag
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this is ridiculous, and you and others have said it before. so many of us want to be in nyc, and if there were 50 other families like me willing to go to the school down the street, I would skip the commute form the burbs and stay. your hysterical scare tactic is just that. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:19 PM Flag
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at any rate, the city needs to lose some of these kids. there just isn't space or capacity anymore. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:20 PM Flag
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many of us lived the early stages of this in the 1970s. even people who wanted to stay eventually left. it took 20 years for the city to rebound. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:23 PM Flag
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oh please. the city is bursting at the seams, and the smart people will stay and make it work. too much else that is good in nyc, and no one I know would want to commute. if people in the same strata stay, they will undoubtedly fix the local schools. ps9/anderson was a scary underutilized school when anderson started. now its the most desirable public in the system. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:27 PM Flag
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also, there were many reasons why people left for the burbs then. lack of gifted education was not high on the list. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:27 PM Flag
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lack of decent school options was high on a lot of lists though. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:32 PM Flag
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but without the other reasons, they would have stayed, and made it work. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:33 PM Flag
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you don't know that. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:35 PM Flag
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I know it as much as you think you know what you know. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:37 PM Flag
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I disagree. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:33 PM Flag
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sounds great to me - please tell Klein this! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:38 PM Flag
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I plan on it. I think all this craziness of late regarding citywides has to be changed. I think people need good local options with good gifted programs, and having a MS would be a good thing. I think local schools in nabes that have been gentrified will never be improved if you allow so many options for people to send their kids out of zone and district. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:40 PM Flag
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I would agree, except that we just got lucky with a citywide spot, so I want to keep the citywides (at least ours). But your suggestions make a lot of sense. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:38 PM Flag
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ditto, but I wouldn't mind if our citywide became district/zoned school. we happen to live in the zone. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:47 PM Flag
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To OP: do you have any actual experience with GT programs or citywides? It doesn't sound like you do. The citywides are coveted because they have a higher cut off, overall (only, overall, on individual level, any child anywhere can be brilliant or blah academically) are accelerated, and depart from teh NYC curriculum which 1. sucks on its own merits; 2 is pitched to the lowest level: 3. moves at the speed of molasses. You can aruge that tests are not reliable; or you can argue that the citywides are not living up to their mission. But I don't see how anyone can argue that we don't need a place for kids who need a lot of acceleration and advanced work. I've seen homework from PS 166 GT and it's totally inappropriate for gifted children. Those kids are good sports and well socialized. If you tried to give that homework to Hunter kids, you'd have a mass rebellion on your hands. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:48 PM Flag
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I think that a school does not need to be citywide to have this approach. we should work toward having real gifted programs with real gifted education. they should be local however. absolutely no need for citywide aspect, IMO. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:52 PM Flag
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I have another solution -- eliminate the G&T altogether. The very best Brooklyn public schools have no G&T programs yet are filled with kids who would qualify. Believe it or not, it works quite well -- G&T programs are a way of segregating kids and it's a shame the DOE can't figure out a better way to improve schools than to put a G&T class in them so middle class parents are willing to send their kids. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:42 PM Flag
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OP here. I disagree with this. all public school systems around the country have gifted education. i don't think we should regress as city in this regard. G&Ts should not be used to lift the schools. they have their own purpose. i also think if people stay in their nabes, and those nabes have both options, then there is no harm to having them. as it stands people use them as a way to leave their bad zones. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:46 PM Flag
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^^^once that option is not available, they will see G&T for what it is...a specialized program for gifted kids. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:48 PM Flag
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Do the public schools in Chappaqua have separate gifted classes? The kids who qualify for gifted programs in NYC aren't really gifted -- they may be smart, but likely no smarter than the average student at any Ivy league or good private liberal arts college. Most of whom do not call themselves "gifted", sorry. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:54 PM Flag
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really don't give a damn what you call it. there are kids who are gifted in G&T programs, and others who aren't. so what? again you people seem to be caught up in some ideal, and have no idea how to develop an overall good ststem (of course, with flaws) that does give a different approach to kids who seem to be able (via testing) to handle it. call it what you want. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:58 PM Flag
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No, I'm just pointing out that NYC gifted programs are filled with kids who are about as smart as the average kid in a good suburban school system. The good suburban school systems don't have to pretend to have gifted classes to keep their very advanced kids happy. And probably more of those kids will go to great colleges than the kids in the nyc gifted programs. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:01 PM Flag
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you are speaking of nyc burbs, but elsewhere in the country, even in small burbs of small cities and rural schools, there are always accelerated or higher level classes/programs for the higher level kids. that scarsdale has the same approach for all of its wealthy kids makes no difference. G&T programs are progressive in the field of education, and I see no good coming from trying to go backwards. G&T should not be a way for people to get out of zone, however.. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:05 PM Flag
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ie., they are being misused, as are the familes and kids in these programs. a mc kid made to stay local will have parents who work to improve the school whether or not he is gifted or talented. and that is how it should be in my opinion. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:07 PM Flag
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You are wrong, G&T aren't progressive at all, and in NYC it is a joke. You have basically proven my point. Most of the gifted kids in NYC wouldn't even be close to being the smartest in their class in a good suburb. So it's just an excuse to separate middle class kids who are a bit above average (and really not gifted at all) from the poor kids who might be struggling academically. Most schools can accomodate this, as the ones in Brooklyn do. Don't need to pretend the above average kids are "gifted", however. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:08 PM Flag
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well, we disagree. i cannot see how I have proven your point that the kids in G&T aren't the smartest kids in the class in a good suburb. some kids are gifted, and some are not. i think these programs need to exist, but they need to be in each zoned school, and serve the top students in those schools, wherever they are. You could also test into them at later grades since there would be no need to move to a different school. this is how it is done everywhere and it works well. so a smart poor kid in the zoned school with your MC kid could have the chance to get differentiated education as he gets more school experience and is no longer disadvantaged by his lack of it. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:17 PM Flag
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All you are describing is "tracking", and we did it in my midwestern elementary school in the 60s/70s. The smarter kids were in one class, and everyone knew which one it was. But most none of those kids was gifted. Schools should learn how to differentiate education properly and I'd rather see the DOE focus on improving teaching rather than making middle class parents like yourself feel happy because your kid gets to be with other above average kids and think their kid is "gifted". [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:22 PM Flag
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you seem so sure that none of the kids anywhere in any of these programs, then or now are gifted. what are you, a psychic? of course some are...in the midwest in your day, and now. these programs are good for the smarter kids, and should be available to them. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:29 PM Flag
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lol! ITA. that poster is delusionsl. thinks all the kids are dumb, and no one needs more advanced education. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:32 PM Flag
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When did I say all the kids were dumb? I said, very few of the kids in NYC gifted programs are really gifted; they are just above average. Perhaps you need better reading skills. But it seems you think everyone a bit smarter than average needs their own class. My kid goes to a great public school, no gifted program, and a bet at least 20% of the kids would qualify as gifted. There are other ways to teach smart kids than to segregate them from the "average" kids. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:38 PM Flag
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again, you are saying that dew kids are actually gifted in nyc G&Ts. you have absolutely no data to base this on. same goes for your assessment of giftedness of your cohort in the midwestern 60s/70s. I think gifted kids benefit from certain approaches, and smart kids benefit from being taught at their level. I think plenty of research supports this. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:41 PM Flag
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Great. I'm sure that is the case -- I'm certain that most successful adults attended special gifted classes that helped them live up to their brilliance. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:45 PM Flag
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^^^ and all the top kids at the best colleges must have attended gifted programs, or else how could they be so academically successful? I'm sorry, but the g&t programs in nyc are just a way for middle class parents to keep their smart, but far from gifted, kids together. I'm sure a few are gifted, but not the vast majority. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:46 PM Flag
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I am glad you are so sure, but frankly, you sound bitter. about your own upbringing/education, and now your dc's. seems you don't have it, so it can't be good for anyone else, nor can any other dc need it or be smarter than you and yours. must be nice to live in your world...or not. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:49 PM Flag
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say what? I don't get your point. There are lots of kids smarter than my dc (although apparently, with 1500+ ELA/Math scores, dc qualifies as "gifted" in NYC) Truly gifted kids need special programs, and I do know one or two, but I repeat, the vast majority of kids in NYC gifted programs are just smart kids. You think all smart kids need to be separated from the average kids, and I don't. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:53 PM Flag
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ela/math tests do not test giftedness, and I'll bet with those scores you will want to segregate your kid for MS/HS. since you have not had experience with the gifted programs in nyc, you have no idea. I might have agreed with you before being at a very good program. the kids were not all obviously gifted, but they were by far much brighter than our highly sought after preschool's kids. many of those kids went on to top privates, btw. but the overall energy and intelligence level in the gifted program is way higher. its really quite interesting. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:59 PM Flag
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But is your dc at Hunter? That's probably the one school that is the exception. But I haven't heard of one kid who tested that didn't qualify as "gifted" in nyc (although perhaps not enough for citywides). But the program has been expanded so much that it seems like everyone I know qualifies. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 09:16 PM Flag
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because you don't agree with the method of choosing, means nothing. there is no good science saying the sb is better than the olsat in determining giftedness in 4 yos. sorry, yours is but a feeling or opinion. hunter is not magical, and their methods are as flawed as any. I know more than a couple of hunter kids who turned out to be not so suited for the progtam. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.11.08, 02:49 AM Flag
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It's never going to happen, simply because there aren't enough of those "very best" schools to go around. Most middle class families, when faced with the choice between a crappy zoned school and moving to the suburbs will move - which is a public policy nightmare. What may be the better educational policy may not be what is best for NYC as a whole. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:47 PM Flag
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I don't know. Have a few friends who have decided to go to ps84 in the fall. the school is up and coming and if enough people get shut out of privates and G&T, they may still want to attend the local school if others are doing it too. the very wealthy will leave if they don't get private, of course, but there are many MC people who do not want to leave the city, and would be happy if their likeminded neighbors all elected to go to the local school and build it up. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:50 PM Flag
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but far more families are not willing to sacrifice their DCs education on the altar of public schools. I live in the PS 84 zone and that school has been "up and coming" for the last 5 years. It hasn't gotten there yet. If our only choices were PS 84 and moving, we'd move. It would be hard - DH and I have commutes of less than 25 minutes, door to door, which would more than double if we went to any 'burb and our child-care situation become a shambles. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 07:55 PM Flag
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well, then move. if everyone had to stay local or move, I guarantee you schools like ps84, which is in a pricey nabe would move beyond the up and coming stage. no need to use G&T as the carrot, or give spots to people like you to schools like ps87. if you move, there will be someone to take your spot. the city is overcrowded with kids, and you will not be missed. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:01 PM Flag
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families wouldn't stay - it's what destroyed Detroit. when the auto industry moved out of Detroit, the middle class moved with their jobs; when they left, the rest of the city took a nose dive into what it has been. a city can't survive without its middle class and if the G&T programs are what it takes to keep the middle and upper middle classes in NYC, that is what the City will do, regardless of educational pedagogy. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:06 PM Flag
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But you have it backwards. The middle class WANTS to stay in the city, and that's why, at least in Brooklyn, they have improved the local schools, made them very desirable, without a gifted program. In fact, until this year, no one even wanted to send their smart kids to the gifted programs, which were in crummy schools. Klein's expansion of the g&t program isn't the reason so many zoned schools are now desirable. You don't need fake gifted programs to do this. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:14 PM Flag
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They want to stay, and are willing to stay, as long as they can be assured of a decent education for their DCs. If they don't think that's going to happen, they will leave. The middle class made a major exodus from NYC in the 1970s, in part because of the schools, and there is no desire to repeat that. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:21 PM Flag
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it was the auto industry tanking that killed detroit, not the lack of G&T programs. you are absurd...and wrong. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:22 PM Flag
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when the auto industry left, so did all of the middle class jobs. the people followed their jobs and the city couldn't survive without the middle class. all I am saying is that when the middle/upper middle class leaves any city, that city gets into massive trouble. since NYC is less dependent on a single industry (although Wall St comes close), shutting down one industry will not chase out the middle class, but if the middle class thinks their DCs will not get a decent education in the public schools, they will leave. if they leave, it's a public policy disaster waiting to happen. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:27 PM Flag
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I don't think that making gifted programs in zoned schools will cause a mass exodus of the MC. sorry, just don't buy the hysteria. I think people who can, will move to good zones, and those who can't, but don't want to commute, and live in gentrified areas with other MC/UMC people will attend these schools if their peers do. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:31 PM Flag
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Except NYC has different demographics than Detroit. If white middle class families leave, their are still new immigrant families here and continuing to pour into the city, and their kids will fill the schools. In addition, there are a lot of young singles and childless couples, who are not going anywhere. Yes, Wall Street may be tanking, but there are many other industries. There will probably always will be a huge tourist industry, a thriving creative class, many health care facilities, universities, etc. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:33 PM Flag
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The immigrant population will always use NYC as a gateway, but not many restaurants can survive just on tourist business. If the city has to cut major services like police and sanitation because of declining tax revenue, the wealthy will not stay either - they will move to Greenwich. Once they are gone, their support for the major institutions/tourist draws like MoMA will go with them, etc. It's a parade of horribles, but not one that the City likes to immagine, so they will do whatever they think is necessary to keep the middle/upper middle classes living here. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:41 PM Flag
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you sound nuts. this ain't gonna happen. period. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:42 PM Flag
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PS84 has 4 or 5 blocks on CPW (and most of those DCs go to private schools) - nothing on WEA or Riverside. The rest of that zone is not what you seem to think it is - there are two huge housing projects in that zone and a bunch of walkups on Columbus and Amsterdam. There are a few luxury buildings, and some very expensive brownstones, but it's the low West 90s, not the West 70s. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:18 PM Flag
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So you don't care about a gifted program if you are in the suburbs, right? Because your kid probably wouldn't qualify by suburban standards. So why the insistence on your kid being in a g&t program in NYC? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:04 PM Flag
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I would care and my DC would qualify for whatever G&T programs are out there (currently at Hunter). However, generally speaking, many of the suburban districts have better overall public school systems than the Gen Ed schools in NYC. Individual schools and school districts are better or worse, but it's not hard to find a suburban school district that will provide a better education than PS 84. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:11 PM Flag
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op here. the idea is that this will change if people have to stay local with all their MC/UMC cronies who will improve the schools just by being there. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:24 PM Flag
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But you seem to also be saying that MC/UMC people won't stay local if they can't be in a special gifted program so they don't have to be in classes with the other kids in the school. That's what I don't understand. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:27 PM Flag
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no, I am saying that MC/UMC don't want to be in a school without their peers. if everyoone is made to stay local, then they will be with their peers, and the school will improve. the gifted program in the school would be for the top students, and would be more mixed as it wouldn't be only available at K level. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:36 PM Flag
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If you had any experience of a good public school, you would understand that you don't need to separate the smartest kids, you just need to know how to differentiate instruction so they are challenged. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:42 PM Flag
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many educators would disagree with you, and certainly in nyc, differentiating instruction is necessary given the highly heterogenous population. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:44 PM Flag
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there aren't enough kids to fill a K-8 G&T in each district [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:17 PM Flag
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it could be a program within the school [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:38 PM Flag
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but how many K-8 gen ed schools are there? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:40 PM Flag
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this is a proposal, silly. hasn't happened yet, but it should. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:50 PM Flag
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I love how people who have never tried to improve a public school are always saying that if mc/umc parents send their children to a school, they can improve it. I have said this before but let me say it again. Parents dont' hire teachers, choose professional development, control the budget or control class size. Nor do parents choose the principals for their schools. Parents can do nothing but raise money for assiistant teachers and art supplies. yes, better than nohting but not what makes a school good. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:44 PM Flag
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money talks. the more money the parents raise, the more enrichment and programming they can fund, the better the experience and education. not sure why you don't get that. you should spend some time at one of the schools that has been very successful in this regard. you can see how it is done. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:47 PM Flag
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I agree with #1 and #2. Not sure what you mean about #3. Definitely disagree with #4.....but that is probably b/c I'm in a crappy zone in a good district. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.10.08, 08:31 PM Flag
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