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07.05.08, 09:45 AM New York City
49 replies
This is loosely related to all the "cheating" threads. The DOE has been working to centralize placement so that parents and schools can't game the system. A clear and stated motive is to steer parents toward their local schools. There is a petition circulating about this, however it primarily focuses on the administrative failings which could easily be fixed. The more serious question has to do with the feelings of "powerlessness" that parents are continuously expressing on this board. This centralization seems to be exacerbating that feeling, heightening the urge to run from, rather than work with, the system. How can parents win back the power? Can we simultaneously keep the system "fair"? [ Reply | Watch | Flag ]
New York City 07.05.08, 09:45 AM Flag
 

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Good question. If we are forced to go to our zoned school (PS145), we will leave the city. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 10:02 AM Flag
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Centralized systems are rigid and bureaucratic. The idea that everyone suffers equally does not appeal to me, personally. Insofar as KLein treats the mc in teh same shitty way the poor have always been treated, i do not see that as progress. Only limousine liberals rejoice when mc gets kicked around. I don't think the mc is more virtuous, but you dont' have democracy without a strong mc, so it behooves all of us, who believe in democracy, to keep the mc alive and well adn growing inside and outside the schools. The pulse of the mc in America is the idea that if you work hard and strive adn are clever, you can have a good life. Creating a public school system, where it is mostly a matter of chance whether your child goes to NEST with a 98 or 145 with a 98 or a matter of a lottery whether your child goes to MSC or PS 84, is creating a school system where any mc family who can opt out will. And insofar as mc families cannot opt out, they will be demoralized adn their children will suffer an inferior education and the tendency toward a Latin American style oligarchy with an elite layer, a sliver of mc, and a large disenfranchised population will become more pronounced. Parents have less and less unofficial room to manuever and less and less official power. Teh Chancellor doesn't listen. He dislikes mc people and thinks they are at best irrelevant, and at worst getting in his way of implementing his grand ever-changing schemes for the majority of underprivileged children in the city. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 10:13 AM Flag
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but if everyone else were forced to go there, too, wouldn't it be a different school? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 10:25 AM Flag
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Probably not. It is RIGHT across the street from a massive housing project. Given it pulls from morning side heights, a lot of the kids come from non-english speaking homes. My kid who is already reading and writing (just turned 4) would be ignored. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 10:33 AM Flag
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The point is that the school will always have a vast majority of kids who come from very poor, non-english speaking backgrounds. Even if the 20% of UMC parents sent their kids there, not much would change and due to NCLB's focus on the ones not passing the test....kids like mine would be underserved. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 10:56 AM Flag
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From Inside Schools...."PS 145 has been added to the state's list of schools needing improvement under No Child Left Behind because of inadequate performance on the state tests in English. (December 2007)". [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 10:36 AM Flag
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Maybe there is something wrong with expecting a child who is a recent immigrant to take a test in English? Imagine if you moved to France and your dc was expected to be proficient IN French equal to children born and raised there in only a year or two. Crazy! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 11:02 AM Flag
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>>>and by the way, you or your spouse don't speak French either! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 11:04 AM Flag
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I don't disagree with you. But when huge portions of a schools population can't speak english when they enter Kindergarten, significant portions of the school's resources have to be allocated to these kids. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 11:09 AM Flag
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That's exactly why we need to allocate more money to these schools. The best schools have large fundraising PTA who put money back into only their children's schools. The poor kids in the poorer schools who really need the money don't get it. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 11:40 AM Flag
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Too bad the pot of gold doesn't exist. UMC parents are already leaving the city due to crazy taxes. You pull funding from performing schools, they will become unperforming. I wish I had an answer for you. I do not. I do think injecting into performing schools some of these at risk kids is the best for them. Any school can handle well 5-10% at risk students. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 11:56 AM Flag
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Yes, and that was one thing that was happening before Kline/Bloomberg/Tweed made all of these rules. Performing schools were able to fill seats from out of district/zone to add diversity and fill certain spots for SETTS/ESL etc. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 03:08 PM Flag
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But they did not. They cherrypicked who they thought would be involved parents who will volunteer and bring money to the school. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 04:30 PM Flag
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That's not true of most of the UWS schools I know who worked hard to bring in a diverse student body. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 04:36 PM Flag
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PS87 is the only one that did, but even they did not take diverse kids from the projects, but by and large from MC families. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 05:40 PM Flag
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np: Those schools DO get more money - up to 3x more per child for language and poverty. The problems go way deeper than just learning a language. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 04:26 PM Flag
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Very true. The fanciest schools will never fix a screwed up family or lack thereof. Didn't know they already get 3X as much money. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 07:18 PM Flag
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NP:Children who are recent immigrants do not have to take the ELA tests. These are the scores without those kids; the kids that have been living here for at least two years and have been assessed as NOT "ELL - English Language Learners" [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 04:24 PM Flag
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haha, us too. zoned for PS241. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 11:54 AM Flag
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Just looked it up on insideschools. I don't blame you. GL! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 12:15 PM Flag
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OP - All interesting comments. To the OR, your concerns are legit. You may not be as detached from the local community as you suggest (how many of the people sending their kids to PS145 may do services for you, or work at local businesses?) But it is true that in many cases the community defined by a particular school zone only exists as abstract lines on a DOE map. Why should you feel committed to it? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 12:25 PM Flag
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I love my community. No problem with it. I just have a super bright DC who currently loves to learn. I want him to go to a school where that will be developed. Being sent to a school with so many at risk kids will not do that. He will be given a book and asked to read independently much of the day as he already passes "the test." Not fair to him. I will quit my job and leave the city before sending him to PS 145. Much of the zone for 145 is east of broadway. We live west of broadway. Honestly, very different feeling communities east and west of broadway up here. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 12:34 PM Flag
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np: I agree. I will leave rather than send dd to 192. I am a teacher, however, and can't afford to move to a better zone. That is the solution that I get here. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 03:02 PM Flag
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right. west of broadway are the white MC and the columbia professors and the like who all think they have super bright kids who deserve better than all the kids east of broadway. well, if you believe that, please pack up and move south on broadway. no need for a lottery or other system. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 08:08 PM Flag
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ITA. UMC people want all the eclectic richness and vibrancy that living in a multicultural community offers, but then they do what every they can do to send their children into virtual gated community schools. The schools should reflect the communities we live in all colors, incomes and cultures. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 02:12 PM Flag
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I'm the OR. That is not true. PS145's zone is not diverse, it is heavily weighted to at risk, non-english speaking students. There are certain blocks in my zone I don't walk due to repeated threats from groups of youth. Or yesterday, the drunk mom's coming back from the park with their young girls using the "bitch" and "fuck" every other sentence. I could do without that type of "vibrancy", but this is where we could afford a 2 bedroom. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 02:52 PM Flag
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145 sounds like roses compared to my zone. At least you are in district 3 and can enter the district 3 lottery. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 03:07 PM Flag
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True. Fingers crossed on the D3 lottery if DC has a bad OLSAT day. Good luck to you. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 03:31 PM Flag
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Good luck to you too. I have an extra year but am prepared to fight the fight if I must. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 03:32 PM Flag
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Ditto that. This is why I was frantic about getting my kid into a citywide G&T. With no district G&T and no progressive lottery type schools there was no other alternative. If that hadn't worked then I would have moved. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.06.08, 03:09 PM Flag
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I'm open to suggestions. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 10:16 AM Flag
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raise taxes to pay more for education, elimate zones using a district wide lottery and stop g & t programs within underpreforming schools. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 11:07 AM Flag
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Money won't solve many of the problems. Sorry. We already pay some of the highest taxes in the country. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 11:11 AM Flag
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and how much money do you give to your PTA? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 11:41 AM Flag
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Don't have school aged kids yet. If I did, and I was lucky enough to get into a good citywide or hit the lottery, I'd probably give $3-5K. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 12:09 PM Flag
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See, you will only give to a "good" school. It's the underpreforming schools that need your money more. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 02:04 PM Flag
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Well, my kids will not be attending a bad school. Rather move. I wouldn't mind if I was lucky enough to go to a good school for 20% of parent donations to go to a more needy underperforming "sister school." [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 02:53 PM Flag
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Dream on. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 11:25 AM Flag
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would never advocate for eliminating zones. that would be terrible. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 11:51 AM Flag
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Rezoning requires Federal intervention. They couldn't rezone earlier in the 2000s and that's why they created Regions to approximate rezoning, but it was a disaster. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 04:37 PM Flag
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they ought to centralize process for prek-3rd grade, tracking of dcs, start g&t in 4th grade. add to resources at early grades [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 10:45 AM Flag
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The truly powerless parents in NYC are most certainly not those griping on UB. That said, the vocal parents can certainly be positive agents of change. I welcome the move away from the old system, where people from far away neighborhoods could "talk their way into" good schools that they're not zoned for. I also believe the DOE needs to crack down hard on cheaters. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 11:27 AM Flag
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I agree. But the vocal parents who have a voice are being demeaned as selfish brats. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 12:17 PM Flag
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Demeaned as selfish brats? What are you referring to? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 12:39 PM Flag
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They absolutely should not start GT in 4th grade - what in the world do you think will happen to the kids who are way ahead of the other kids? If anything, they should offer more accelerated programs and more differentiation in gifted programs, citywide and otherwise. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 12:41 PM Flag
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NP: I think they should start G&T around 3rd grade. Resources should go into guaranteeing more kids a better foundation in the first 2-3 yrs of elementary school. But I agree that we need more citywide schools in other boroughs. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 12:51 PM Flag
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nnp: The problem is that third grade is the first testing year and so administratively that would not work, plus who wants to change schools every 3 years? I'd say tracking in K-5 and selective middle schools is a way to go. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 04:29 PM Flag
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The zoning system is segregation and decreases diversity in all city schools. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 02:59 PM Flag
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That's absurd. There is no way the city has enough money to bus kids all over the city. The bus system is already largest in the country and the majority of the kids do go to their zoned schools. If they didn't, there would be sea of yellow buses all over the place every morning. Insanity. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.05.08, 04:32 PM Flag
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