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07.01.08, 05:33 AM New York City
81 replies
Why do you think so few blacks/Hispanic DCs test for G&T?. For example Blacks/Hispanics are 77% of the NYC GenEds and only 15% of DCs in schools like Anderson/LL [ Reply | Watch | Flag ]
New York City 07.01.08, 05:33 AM Flag
 

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Longer distance to travel to school is often not an option for these families; nor is paying for afterschool programs. Often they feel more comfortable in a neighborhood school where a friend/relative can pick up child after or a local free/lowcost afterschool option is available for working parents that don't have lots of "comp" time flexibility. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 05:44 AM Flag
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^^So what you get in G&T is more UMC children of color (children of professionals) that also have private schools vying for their bright kids and it's appealing. That's why so low a % IMHO. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 05:45 AM Flag
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It's not just that, the vast majority of lower income minority dcs just don't get the enrichment needed to give them a shot at G&Ts. None of the minority dcs at selective G&Ts are from poor families, or even LMC. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:01 AM Flag
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wow, that's just plain wrong. there are definitely children of color in my child's grade at 9 who are from low-income families. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 10:01 AM Flag
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Not in my dc's grade. Not one. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:17 PM Flag
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^^^in the G&T program that is. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:18 PM Flag
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That is not true. You can't say "none" of the kids are from poor families. My dc, who is in citywide G&T, has a black kid in the class that fits the profile. Poor single mom, father in jail, lives in the projects. This kid is one of the highest performing kids in the class. Mother was just motivated to meet the deadlines in did what it took to get her in. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 10:42 AM Flag
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bravo. that must be an inspiration. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 12:01 PM Flag
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ok I should not have said none, but it's very rare. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:17 PM Flag
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np: It isn't rare at all. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:35 PM Flag
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nnp. Don't be a fool. It IS rare. Maybe it offends your PC sensibilities to acknowledge this, but unfortunately the dc in the above poster's example is an exception to the rule. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 04:57 PM Flag
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How many schools/classrooms are you privy to, genius? What are you basing your opinion on? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:12 PM Flag
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It's called reality. You should check it out sometime. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:22 PM Flag
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In reality how many schools/classrooms have you personally observed? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:23 PM Flag
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It has nothing to do with personal observation. It's about piles of data that indicate poor, minority dc are horribly underrepresented in these programs. What are YOU basing YOUR opinion on? A handful of dc you know or heard about who are exceptions to the rule? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:00 PM Flag
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How many G&T programs are there in UMC white neighborhoods, compared to similar programs in black neighborhoods? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:40 PM Flag
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np. You really are living in LaLa Land. Don't get me wrong - I can tell your intentions are good. But the problem with people like you is you want so much to be liberal and fair-minded that you convince yourself the situation is better than it really is. What you don't seem to realize is that sort of self-delusion indirectly perpetuates the status quo. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:58 PM Flag
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Oky, "np" how do you know my race or political inclinations? The question remains the same. How many G&T programs are there in UMC white neighborhoods, compared to similar programs in black neighborhoods? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 08:01 PM Flag
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I'm honestly not sure what your point is. I think the better question is how many dc from those prfiles qualified for G&T once the DOE established consistent guidelines. Ask yourself why they hda to lower the cutoff to 90% in order to keep some programs alive in the neighborhoods where poor black dc live? And even then the number of qualifying dc is comparatively very low. How can you deny it's rare for poor minority dc to make it into a the most competitive G&T programs? It defies logic and reality. It's wishful thinking. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 08:10 PM Flag
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You're really ignorant, really. First, most MC/UMC AA families don't believe their dcs will get a comparable education in the public school system. With good reason. So, you will find the most talented AA dcs are in Charter, parochial, and private schools. Many aren't taking the test for this reason. That being said, I believe my question is a very fair one. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 08:18 PM Flag
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You're the ignorant one here. The conversation in this entire subthread has been about poor minority dc. Low income. Get it? Not MC/UMC minority dc. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 08:34 PM Flag
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totally wrong [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 05:40 PM Flag
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There are some - it's more of a mix economically in the Black and Latino population at my child's public G&T. But there are definitely not as many testing at that young an age. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:08 PM Flag
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Yep, I have a black girlfriend whose oldest tested highly gifted and was in a good program, but she pulled him out because little sister didn't,the gifted program was too far from their home in brooklyn, she couldn't manage the double commute and still keep her job. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:40 AM Flag
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but that had nothing to do with her being black, though [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:33 AM Flag
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Less parental familiarity with the procedure, less parental flexibility in preparing for and delivering the test, and less tolerance for long commutes (ie: less flexible work arrangements). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:00 AM Flag
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I believe everyone was tested this year. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:37 AM Flag
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Maybe for Kindergarten kids already in school. But it was optional for all preschoolers. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:42 AM Flag
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np. Even for current K dc parents had to request the test. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:44 AM Flag
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The DOE claims they tested 50,000 kids. Does anyone know the racial and/or socioeconomic make up of that pool? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:59 AM Flag
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Nope. Supposedly even the DOE doesn't know, which, if it's true, is pretty damned stupid in my opinion. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:05 AM Flag
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They are ridiculous. They threw the 50,000 in my face when I complained that no one had returned any of half a dozen messages I'd left. They don't even have the tests, they are all being held by "the vendor". [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:31 AM Flag
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why is that ridiculous? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 11:50 AM Flag
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Because it was not the answer poster wanted. Jeez. (That "jeez" was sarcastic.) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:13 PM Flag
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Nope, you had to request the testing. But even testing everyone does not solve the gap in enrichment, nor the gap in willingness of parents to actually get the kids into the G&T program. Plenty of parents have hard enough time to get dcs to school on time and fed with just their neighborhood school around the corner. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:43 AM Flag
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NP: I agree with you, but many G&T programs do offer busing. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:45 AM Flag
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Even with busing, you have to take your kid to the bus stop early in the morning (and often wait there for a while), and go pick them up way before you get home from work. You can't do afterschool if you take the bus. This is a problem for many families who can't afford afterschool babysitter. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:55 AM Flag
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nnp. You realize it's not door-to-door service so parents still need to get dc to the bus stop? The bus doesn't necessarily make things easier. When we looked into busing for our dc we realized to get dc to the stop on time we would have to leave our house earlier than if we just took dc to school ourselves. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:57 AM Flag
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NP: Of course I realize that. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:59 AM Flag
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The bigger issue is that you can't use afterschool if you rely on the bus to get dc back home. And in most cases, afterschool at selective G&Ts is far more expensive (though arguably much higher quality too) than afterschool in low-income neighborhoods which often have subsidized or free afterschool options. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:01 AM Flag
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Yes, that's true. There are scholarships in some of the programs though. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:02 AM Flag
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That's almost always the case as bus makes a lot of stops. We leave the house at 8:15 to make it to school on public bus by 8:30, if we are late cab is 5 mins. The bus pick up for dc would have been at 7:45. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:59 AM Flag
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NP again: We're looking at a 7:15 am bus pickup starting in Sept. not happy about it, but the educational opportunity is something we just could not pass up. Everyone makes their choices. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:01 AM Flag
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nnp again. You're missing the point. Some people don't have a choice. It sounds like your situation will be inconvenient and unpleasant, but you evidently have enough flexibility to make it possible. Not everyone does. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:09 AM Flag
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NP: No, I understand that. I get it. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:36 AM Flag
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Sure. But you have to know that if you were a single mom of 3 you would not be eager to lug your one dc to a bus stop at 7;15, dragging the other two kids with you, then taking them home and dropping them off again an hour later at their local school. Plus who would do the pick up if you can't afford babysitter? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:35 AM Flag
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No, parents had to request the test. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:43 AM Flag
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you're wrong, that was floated as an ideal for next year, but budget cuts axed that. It was still up to the parents to opt to test this year, though the option was publicized somewhat more widely, and as a result, many more parents applied this year than in previous years. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:10 AM Flag
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You had to request testing this year. Next year they said they'll test all public PreK only. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:09 PM Flag
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I think it's a direct result of fewer quality daycare and early childhood enrichment programs in predominantly Black & Hispanic neighborhoods, in addition to all of the myriad ways that poverty can affect a family. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:41 AM Flag
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Isn't there a statistic somewhere about how the most influential predictor in a child's educational achievement is his mother's level of education? I might be mixing that up somehow, but I recall that a mother's level of education has a HUGE impact on her children. If Black & Hispanic women are not represented in higher education in large numbers (and I don't think they are), that can explain a lot. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:44 AM Flag
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that is correct. educational attainment, value placed on education, presence of books and reading in the home. Kids from these demographics don't test well for these reasons. I can't wait to see how the DOE is going to turn itself inside out trying to find an instrument that will substantiate the political need to get more kids into G&T programs. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:37 AM Flag
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LOL. "You people" are hilarious. Such bullshit theories. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:37 PM Flag
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While I am aware of the connection between a mother's level of education and children's academic success, I am not sure I agree with your assessment of the number of black and hispanic women attaining higher degrees. I also don't have access to those numbers, but I am willing to guess that they are fairly well represented and that they are certainly out-performing their male counterparts -- well at least black women are. I think the thing is that those women are only now starting to have children and that we'll begin to see the change in stats as their kids enter school. (This is not scientific, just my theory.) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:01 PM Flag
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AGreed that they outperform their male counterparts. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:03 PM Flag
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I think in NYC kids from those demographics are more likely to be from disadvantaged families, and regarding kids from underserved neighborhoods/disadvantaged families... there was a GREAT NyTimes Mag article a couple of years ago that showed how by K kids from disadvantaged backgrounds are already way behind kids from other families. They are exposed to fewer vocabulary words, etc. etc. Studies quoted in the article showed these kids (this is an economic thing - not a race thing) need more from school (longer hours, etc.). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:46 AM Flag
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Indeed. There's only so far a kid can go when all he hears around the house are four-letter words! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:10 AM Flag
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Yes, I remember that article. It was interesting because it went beyond just vocabulary, but also talked about praise v. negative comments and just how much a child was spoken to. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:07 PM Flag
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The bottom line is, stupid parents, stupid kids. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:38 PM Flag
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I prefer to say uneducated. Stupid is kind of harsh. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:39 PM Flag
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I prefer the unvanished, P.C.-free TRUTH. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:42 PM Flag
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There is a difference between "stupid" and uneducated. PC has nothing to do with it. Compassion and not being quick to judge others has more to do with it. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 02:52 PM Flag
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Nah. I'll stick with "stupid". [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 03:06 PM Flag
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np: Of course you would. It shows your level of intelligence. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 03:09 PM Flag
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You're right. And my preference for being accurate with language. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 03:19 PM Flag
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You suck. I feel sorry for your kids - if you have any. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 03:43 PM Flag
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Unvanished??? Don't you mean unvarnished??? Your vocab could use some work... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:11 PM Flag
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np. I didn't like her "stupid" comment either, but it's pretty silly to criticize her vocabulary for what was obviously a typo. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 07:37 PM Flag
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The article pointed out child rearing differences between economic groups and gave positive aspects of for each. Children raised by poorer parents are often more self reliant and better at dealing with peers. Children raised in more affluent situations were more often included by adults in conversations and are generally better at relating to adults. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 05:38 PM Flag
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If we're talking about the decision to test dc or not to test, it's a combination of factors. Some parents may not be aware of the G&T options, especially if they're immigrants and/or non-English speakers - and this population is disproportionately non-white. Or if they're aware of the programs, they may live too far away to feasibly commute. Some may perceive the G&T system as elitist and assume the process is rigged against their dc, so why bother? And a small number may have an anti-G&T or anti-intellectual attitude, so they're just not interested in that for their dc. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 06:53 AM Flag
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np: some may also worry that their dcs will be negatively tracked if they don't test well. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 05:47 PM Flag
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A lot of AA families with kids who are brilliant think their kids won't qualify for G&T. I tried to convince my neighbor to try out for G&T bec the kid is really smart. Plus, there is some uneasiness for some people who think trying out for G&T feels elitist or uncool. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 03:18 PM Flag
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I think there's a mistrust of public education by some of the African American community in NYC. (and yes, it goes back). African American families I know send children to parochial or charter schools (and also to private schools). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 05:41 PM Flag
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Bingo. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 08:03 PM Flag
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Here's a link for the NY Times magazine article about child rearing differences by class that is referred to above: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/magazine/26tough.html?pagewanted=all [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 05:52 PM Flag
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Here's a quote from the article: Middle-class children argue with their parents, complain about their parents’ incompetence and disparage parents’ decisions.” Working-class and poor children, by contrast, “learn how to be members of informal peer groups. They learn how to manage their own time. They learn how to strategize.” But outside the family unit, Lareau wrote, the advantages of “natural growth” disappear. In public life, the qualities that middle-class children develop are consistently valued over the ones that poor and working-class children develop. Middle-class children become used to adults taking their concerns seriously, and so they grow up with a sense of entitlement, which gives them a confidence, in the classroom and elsewhere, that less-wealthy children lack. The cultural differences translate into a distinct advantage for middle-class children in school, on standardized achievement tests and, later in life, in the workplace. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 05:58 PM Flag
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Because it's a byzantine system that still favors the upper class. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 08:05 PM Flag
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Not enough of these dcs are exposed to the same level of enrichment/test prep as other children - particularly the level of test prep/type of stuff dcs of UB moms are exposed to [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 09:04 PM Flag
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I am Black and I believe it is a lack of education as well as a lack of informal networks like UB that prevent many Black families from testing. Black people just don't talk among themselves or share knowledge in this way. But I for one plan to change this and [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 10:26 PM Flag
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Lack of knowledge about the process is a major issue. And later when your child scores well (as mine did) making tough decisions about whether a daily 3-hour commute from East Flatbush to a citywide G+T is in your child's best interest. Consequently, we chose our local district G+T (note there is only ONE choice for the entire district) and will offer acceleration at home with workbooks above grade level. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 10:33 PM Flag
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Education begins at home. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 07.01.08, 11:20 PM Flag
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