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06.27.08, 10:02 AM NY Schools
94 replies
Am I the only person who finds talk of the importance of having a peer group of 99s totally depressing for so many reasons. [ Reply | Watch | Flag ]
NY Schools 06.27.08, 10:02 AM Flag
 

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I don't. I think it's really exciting to give dc the opportunity to work with a group of kids generally at the same level. Sorry! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:04 AM Flag
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Don't say you are sorry when you are not. It's undignified, at best. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:11 AM Flag
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OK [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:13 AM Flag
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Don't say undignified when you mean condescending. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.29.08, 08:11 AM Flag
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I too find it really exciting. But certainly wouldn't characterize it as opportunity. Just a unique opportunity that you wouldn't frankly have living in most areas of the country. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:15 AM Flag
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No I find it funny. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:05 AM Flag
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I think you have the right attitude: OP [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:09 AM Flag
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Acctually, I think it is good for the kid to be the smartest (or one of the smarted) in the class. With all smart kids, he will just be av. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:14 AM Flag
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Not me. I'd prefer dc in a group where she has to make an effort if she wants to be one of the highest achievers. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:19 AM Flag
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My kid is at a citywide. I think you can get distracted by what that means pretty easily. Within the group of kids in his class there are athletic kids, there are readers. There are puzzlers and there are inventors. They pretty much run the gamut of kids. But they all read at a fairly similar level and can enjoy class work as a group. If they were at extreme ranges, the more advanced kids would wind up waiting or entertaining themselves. That is not productive for them and teaches really bad habits. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:14 AM Flag
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Schools have dealt with this forever, though. At my average public school in the suburbs, I was given harder books to read, etc. Was never bored, liked my friends. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:25 AM Flag
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Same here, but while it was good for my self esteem, it was definitely not a great education and I developed bad habits, too [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:28 AM Flag
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But I didn't develop bad habits; the teachers always found a way to challenge me. Maybe you just had bad teachers or maybe there are other factors in your bad habits? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:30 AM Flag
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Maybe - it was a mediocre public school. I think back to my group of bright friends and how they all just fizzled out. We weren't challenged, we could cram for tests 10 minutes before and get perfect scores, we were allowed to read in class whenever we wanted. But I find it hard to believe that there are many teachers out there skilled in individually serving the smartest kids in a large class - sounds ideal but doubtful. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:34 AM Flag
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OR: Thank you. I felt like I was speaking in tongues. The worst part for me was that by HS I resisted the few teachers who would teach to me because I didn't want to do the work. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:20 PM Flag
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really? God, I hated school. It was mind numbingly boring. My dad tells the story of my trig teacher complaining I got zeros for never having my homework done for class but I would do many of the problems at the board when we solved them. I apparently did the assignment while the teacher checked the rest of the class' work. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:29 AM Flag
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We're talking elementary school here, which is a bit different. And I'm guessing you didn't have teachers who knew how to teach to kids at all levels. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:31 AM Flag
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That is a fair push back about age groups. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:05 PM Flag
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where are you in life....why would you *not* do your homework? Is this supposed to show us that you are some how "smart"? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:35 AM Flag
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NP: Why do you sound hostile? Many children have this experience. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:05 PM Flag
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Yes. I was smart. But I was one of those kids who got Cs and Ds in class then scored 98s or 100s on my Regents exams. I got to college and flunked out. I worked for a few years went back and flunked out again. Eventually I finished school and I am happy with my life but I wish I had been pushed at some point. And today, I love the fact that my son is challenged. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:12 PM Flag
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Most kids who fit this profile, not all, do so not because of a lack of challenge but because of being over praised. I do think kids need to be challenged and have no problem with G&T in theory, but have a problem with its execution in NYC. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:58 PM Flag
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That's more than fair. We may have different disagreements but I too have issues with NYC's G&T. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 01:17 PM Flag
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np. That wasn't my experience at all, and I didn't see that among my friends when I was growing up. No one was praising me excessively for being smart; the problem was definitely a lack of challenge. School was too easy; it was possible to put in next to zero effort and still get As and Bs. In 10th grade I switched to a private prep school and got a rude awakening. Suddenly I was in a uniformly bright peer group and the school's expectations were very high, so I had to learn how to study and budget my time if I wanted to do well - which I did! It was tough, but I knew so many people who went through a similar rude awakening when they got to college, and I think it was worse for them than it was for me. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.28.08, 08:01 PM Flag
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OR: If K at my zoned school was anything like pre-K, my kid was much better served being at NEST. I'm not suggesting that this is true for every kid, every teacher or every school. (It is pretty fair to say that a good number of the kids at NEST this past year were not 99s.) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:32 AM Flag
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Or really good ones. I was in an elementary of mixed ability and I enjoyed helping other kids with their work. I can't remember a single negative experience associated with it. I don't think they even tested us until third grade and streaming didn't kick in until 6th. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:38 AM Flag
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Me too! Well, sort of. I was in a place that took the g&t kids out to another school one time a week, then we were with everyone else the other 4 days. Honestly, I preferred the mixed classroom. I loved being with people who were different, and where it was not all purely academic competition. Fast forward 30 years, and I still have friends from the "gen ed" portion and have never spoken to another "gifted" person since. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:57 AM Flag
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OP: It's one thing to be bored in trig, but we are talking about elementary school. They are so young. It seems a shame to me that people would discount other children on the basis of one test. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:47 AM Flag
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Do you really think any body is discounting the kids who did not get 99s? (Well, let me rephrase that: Do you really think anybody other than a few anonymous posters on UB are discounting all kids who did not get 99s?) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:02 PM Flag
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I think a few posters counts as anybody. I would hope that UB is not a representative sample, but it's a pretty depressing cross section. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:30 PM Flag
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Cross section suggests that UB is reflective of the whole. I think your basic premise is the problem. This place is the intersection of Crazy Street and Fucked Up Avenue. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:36 PM Flag
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Yup. Because it's so narrow-minded, and pointless considering the statistical error margin in the test, and because it's just plain elitist, thoughtless, and depressing. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:22 AM Flag
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FWIW, I don't care that every student has a 99, but I am glad that every student is bright. It's basically the way to establish tracking in a society that otherwise abandoned tracking. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:26 AM Flag
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Yes, we know that your genius needs to be segregated from the rest of the 4-year-olds, who should be acknowledged as stupid and tracked for beauty school immediately. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:29 AM Flag
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np: LOL [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:34 AM Flag
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So it's better to teach to the mean? We all want the best for our children. FWIW, my 3 year old is clearly not as bright as his older sister, so we'll be figuring out the best environment for him a few years down the line and I hardly think it will involve beauty school. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:37 AM Flag
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I'm not implying it would, at all. It was a sarcastic comment referring to another thread that said that "slow" kids should immediately be tracked into a vocational line. People here like to throw around the word "tracking" without really understanding how it works or the flaws in the system. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:59 AM Flag
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Well said. There's also an unpleasant whiff of eugenics in it too, esp. since the testing is conducted at such a young age. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:51 AM Flag
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Some "gifted kids" do just fine in a mainstream class. Some "gifted kids" do not, and do much better if they are educated among other kids like themselves. So the parents of "gifted" children should have choices available to them. It's not one size fits all. That is a separate issue as to whether the current system actually identifies "gifted" kids and if it does, whether the cut off is appropriate or the incremental differences in scores significant. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:57 PM Flag
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No, I agree completely. It's the reason we're going to our gen ed though we qualified for G&T. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:25 AM Flag
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Us too! High five! And I'm SOOOOOO glad now, mainly because I would not want to be in a PA with many of the moms here. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:30 AM Flag
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Again, I couldn't agree more. I'm sure there are fabulous parents at those schools, but most who post here are cringe-inducing. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:33 AM Flag
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I remember the super competitive moms from the suburb where I grew up, they really had a toxic effect on everything. I remember sensing it as early as third or fourth grade and wondering what was wrong with them. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:40 AM Flag
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How many OLSAT 99 kids make Hunter cut of(98-99 SB). SB is MUCH harder test. So funny 99 OLSAT moms claiming their DCs are so smart?? I know many smart kids who made Hunter cut off did very poorly in OLSAT. 70s-90). My DC scored 95 OLSAT, 99 SB, 99 ERB. So stop this please! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 10:59 AM Flag
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The SB is a much harder test, and yet all of these kids you know aced the SB and bombed the OLSAT? Give me a break. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:32 AM Flag
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Yep! take a poll if you want to. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:38 AM Flag
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But who's to say which one is easier and which one is more accurate? Or perhaps it measures different kinds of intelligences? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:42 AM Flag
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I doubt very much the test which give 450 99s. Hunter round to end up with 280 Dcs(98-99). Our tester said recently OLSAT is a achivement test. not IQ. Easy to make correct answers if you prep it. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:45 AM Flag
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although it does make sense -there are a lot less kids taking the hunter test, so obviously you have less kids w/ 98-99. i'm sure 16,000 kids didn't take it. so it might be right proportionately [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:47 AM Flag
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Exactly! 280 kids scored 98 or 99 out of 1600 that took the SB. 450 kids scored 99 out of 16,000 who took the OLSAT. It's comparable. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:56 PM Flag
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Actually, according to every expert in the field, the SB is more accurate at this age. So I think that they are the ones to say so. The reason the OLSAT is used by the DOE is financial, not because of any particular accuracy. The OLSAT is actually considered one of the poorest tests to use at that age. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:01 PM Flag
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np: Have you any real citations on this? I've heard this a ton of times on UB and the Wikipedia entry for OLSAT says SB is a better test for the higher scorers, etc. But nobody ever has any actual research to back this up. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 01:21 PM Flag
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Ditto here. The people they cite are the SB testers! What do you think they're going to say? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 01:43 PM Flag
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Sure. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 01:53 PM Flag
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Please note we are not SB testers. But it is considered the gold standard. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 01:53 PM Flag
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otis-Lennon_School_Ability_Test (favorite quote "The fact that the OLSAT is easier and less expensive to administer than an IQ test, such as the Stanford Binet V, makes it more accessible, but, its accuracy at higher levels is less reliable than the Stanford Binet." and http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/dont_throw.htm and http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/current_use.htm and http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/iq_varies.htm There are a lot more, but many can't be linked as they are member-accessible journals, and also I'm out of time. Please note that my daughter took NEITHER test so I have no personal interest. But Mom is an ECDS and she was really surprised the DOE went to the OLSAT when the SB is considered the gold standard. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 01:57 PM Flag
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surprised? The SB costs a sh!tload of money and resources. You cannot offer that to every kid in NYC entering K or 1st. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 03:23 PM Flag
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We can't afford that, but we can afford to massively over-pay crappy outside contractors to handle placement? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.28.08, 05:47 AM Flag
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or couriers to deliver placements....... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.28.08, 05:56 PM Flag
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that contractor is still cheaper than paying $300 per child to a psychologist. What kind of crap load of money did they throw at the contractor? Millions? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.30.08, 06:47 AM Flag
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Friend of mines kid bombed OLSAT and aced ERB. Rejected by citywide. Parents now have to pay for private. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.28.08, 05:53 PM Flag
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np. What BS. They don't HAVE to pay for private, that's their choice. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.29.08, 08:17 AM Flag
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Very true. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.29.08, 05:08 PM Flag
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You were doing soo good but then you had to do a very common UB mistake. You generalized. The SB is NOT a *harder* test. It is a more accurate test when it comes to IQ. The OLSAT is in some levels correlated to IQ tests but it is more demanding in terms of maturity (i.e. the kid needs to be able to stay focused, the tester is not going to "tickle" out what a kid really can do, etc. etc.). That's why you see so many kids acing the SB but bombing the OLSAT. The other way around is not really that common. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:52 AM Flag
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You're exactly right. That is the expert (educational psychologist) opinion on the two tests. It's easy to find if you Google. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:02 PM Flag
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Really, b/c I know kids who didn't do very well on the SB who aced the OLSAT. NP [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:32 PM Flag
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I did not say it is impossible. I said it is not very common. After all these are 4yos we are talking about. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:41 PM Flag
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I was a gifted kid, and I had one of those moms, as did all my gifted friends. I still bear the scars. Seriously. It truly messed with my head in a long-term way, and that's why I'm happy I found an excellent gen ed for my high-achieving daughter. I WILL NOT do that to her! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:00 PM Flag
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Do what, exactly? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:01 PM Flag
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Put her into that environment. The environment so clearly indicated by the insane moms posting here. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:03 PM Flag
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Well, I can't speak to your own personal observations or experience, but the environment on UB is not at all what I expect from citywide this September. UB is its own psycho ward and bears little resemblance to reality. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:07 PM Flag
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True that it bears little resemblance to reality, but it bears a staggering resemblance to the g&t I grew up in. So tread warily. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 02:45 PM Flag
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I disagree. I was a gifted kid and when shifted into a gen ed class was miserable because there were only 1 or 2 kids in my class that I felt excited to play with and the teachers geared the class towards the middle. Had little connection with the rest. My parents pulled me out to go to private school until middle school where there were advanced classes. I do want my child to be surrounded by other bright kids - the classroom's parent body is a non-issue. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.29.08, 07:27 AM Flag
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I cannot believe some of you still want to discuss scores & whether the OLSAT or SB is a more accurate predictor of intelligence. WHO CARES ANYMORE???? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:58 AM Flag
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we care all year long. Private schools, Hunter, G&T, and from the beginning again. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 11:59 AM Flag
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Honestly, some of you really need to let it go now. Time to move on! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:00 PM Flag
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I second that. Its just not healthy. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:58 PM Flag
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I don't think UB in general is very healthy if you do not take it with a grain of salt. It's just entertainment. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 01:27 PM Flag
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I just find it stupid and ill-informed. I can see wanting a peer group of smart, motivated dc. The difference b/t a 90 and a 99 on this silly test is nothing meaningful. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:36 PM Flag
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We didn't have "gifted" when I was a kid, though I was easily the smartest in my class and went on to Stuy. I have to say that in my grammar school and at Stuy, the underachievers were some of the funniest kids I ever met. Every day was an adventure and I looked forward to every day -- even when I was at a school that wasn't particularly challenging. I can't imagine I'd have been better off surrounded by a bunch of egg-heads. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:52 PM Flag
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I'm with you. I find it hard to believe that so many smart people think that DC who score lower on a test at age 4 or 5 have nothing to offer in a classroom. And what happens when your 99 has to work in a world where s/he can't control who surrounds them? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 12:56 PM Flag
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That is such a gross blanket statment to say that kids that score 99 are egg heads. My dc scored 99 last year and is now attending citywide G&T. I am told that DC is one of the funniest kids in the class and right now is definitely mediocre in terms of academics. But thats cool. DC definitely has the raw materials that it takes to perform well at school but right now its play, play, play. Sooner or later DC will learn that the people that do well in life are those that work hard. Having a high IQ is not enough. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 01:11 PM Flag
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so, sounds like being with a bunch of eggheads is not better. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 01:44 PM Flag
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Truly. Why take up a seat in a citywide g&t if he's not interested in academics, and you're not interested in his level of achievement? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 03:08 PM Flag
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He is 5 years old for christ sake. That will come. Even one of the teacher at the school said not to force it. DC is excelling in music, art and all the specials. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.28.08, 06:04 PM Flag
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Mediocre at citywide is different than being mediocre in gen ed. Teacher told me in the beginning of the year that the bar is higher at this school. At least he has something to work towards. He was totally bored last year in Gen Ed. Now he not the smartest in the class anymore. I like it that way. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.29.08, 05:14 PM Flag
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i think the fact that you talk about your kid as a 99 like it's a vital part of who they are and who they will grow up to be sort of gross. how about peers that your child likes to play with ? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.27.08, 03:11 PM Flag
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Unless they are other 99s, these parents wouldn't consider them "peers." Peons, maybe, but not peers. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.28.08, 05:52 AM Flag
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Totally not true for all of us. My 99 has two friends that are in an inclusion class at another school. Kids he went to preschool with. Its all the same to me. Kids are kids. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.29.08, 05:17 PM Flag
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I like my child (who is now in HS) to have lots of friends from different walks of life - different parts of the city, based on her interests in and out of school, camp, etc. - but for school it's been a blessing for her to have a high achieving peer group. It's kept her from dumbing down and caring more about her looks than her grades. I heartily support tracking. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.28.08, 07:37 PM Flag
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I do find it a bit concerning. While I think it's great that ds will have smart kids to work with, I think there is a real benefit to helping teach kids with different skills. Also, afraid he'll be impatient with people who don't catch on as quickly as he and his classmates might. I'm hoping that even 99s will have enough diversity of talents that he'll be stronger than some at some things and weaker at others. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.29.08, 10:47 AM Flag
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That happens even in a narrow range class like those you'd find at Hunter or Anderson or Nest. It's actually remarkable the range in the classrooms. Makes me wonder how other schools with a wider range do more than teach to the middle to low end of the spectrum - my concern with general ed in upper elementary and middle school grades. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.29.08, 02:28 PM Flag
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Wow, looking over this thread I can say I am so glad not to live in NY and have to deal with all of this. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.30.08, 07:00 AM Flag
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Yeah isn't great that you just have to send your kid to the school mandated in your district? Aren't you so happy that you have no choices other than that? Us folks here in NYC are so unfortunate to have so many diverse choices. You should feel sorry for us. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.30.08, 08:44 AM Flag
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