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06.22.08, 18:41 PM New York City
80 replies
FSBO mom from last night...had open house today and lots of brokers stopped by. Many said they would market it to their clients provided we paid 3% to them as a buyers broker. Now I'm just wondering if they are lying to me since the broker on last night said RE brokers would have nothing to do with FSBOs - on the other hand, why would so many of them waste their time to stop by? [ Reply | Watch | Flag ]
New York City 06.22.08, 06:41 PM Flag
 

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The broker from last night had no experience in the NYC market. She worked in CT/MA and was clueless about the process in NYC. The real question is, are you comfortable paying the 3%? If you can reach enough potential buyers, you could be fine with just your and the buyers attorney's working on the deal. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 06:43 PM Flag
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oh, is that where she worked? I missed that part which I guess was pretty important. We are fine paying 3% so I guess we'll just wait and see what happens. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 06:48 PM Flag
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Yes. She had never heard of buyers or sellers hiring their own attorneys (standard in NYC). She thought buyers would sign exclusive agreements with buyers brokers (which doesn't happen in NYC). And she primarily sold very inexpensive homes. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 06:50 PM Flag
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but of course, she is an re agent who knows it all [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 06:51 PM Flag
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Well, she couldn't seem to understand that a RE attorney would know the market as well as a broker. She assumed a lawyer would use zillow for market information. But when every closing is attended by a buyers lawyer and a sellers lawyer, the lawyers end up knowing MORE about the market than the brokers. Not less. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 06:53 PM Flag
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Brokers don't have an income when people figure out how to buy and sell without their participation. Of course they are intimidated by FSBO and attorney negotiated transactions. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 06:54 PM Flag
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yes, but if you have no clue how it works in nyc, don't answer. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 06:57 PM Flag
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lol, yeah, she said the lawyers were going to be done away with in Real Estate, when in fact, with the internet, it will likely be the brokers. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:00 PM Flag
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You absolutely need a lawyer in order to buy or sell a home. I'm not sure why you need a broker. Brokers are like stylists. Nice to have, and they can make your life easier. But you don't need them. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:01 PM Flag
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itttttta [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:02 PM Flag
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yeah, I remember the lawyer banter starting but didn't follow it all the way through. We will certainly have a lawyer representing us! I'm sure people do sign exclusive agreements with buyer's brokers, but probably because they don't know any better! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 06:58 PM Flag
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Hi, I am the realtor from last night. I am ignoring the self-serving attorney above but I curious about Brokers checking out your FSBO. Did the Brokers come with clients? Where are you located? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:05 PM Flag
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at least you get chutzpah points for showing your face again, clueless broker [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:06 PM Flag
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right, not sure why you are wasting your time with me - go away [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:07 PM Flag
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true, you don't have a clue and you give advice re markets you know nothing about. you need a scarlet letter [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:10 PM Flag
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we are in manhattan in a pretty desirable neighborhood. None came with clients today but several wanted to 'advertise' it, take their own pics. I basically said they can do whatever they wanted to get a client to call them 1st (vs me) and I'd pay them 3% if their client bought our apartment. They seemed fine with it...it's just one more place they have on their list of places to show. I guess I'm just curious why you wouldn't do the same (show a FSBO to a client of yours, provided you'd still make your 3%??) It's money right? Who cares if the listing broker isn't an agent? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:17 PM Flag
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not a broker - they will show it, and honestly, it's cool that they want to advertise it. The only way it's going to hurt you is there is a perception that FSBO is more work, so anyone showing it isn't going to push it as hard. But honestly, have you ever had an agent talk you into buying a house? You either like it or you don't. I'm assuming that it is in the mls so that anyone using an agent will see it if it meets their parameters (if it's not then you do have problems). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:22 PM Flag
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There is no mls for NYC [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:24 PM Flag
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nothing computerized? How do brokers know what's on the market? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:27 PM Flag
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the New York Times Real Estate Web site is the closest thing to an MLS in NYC [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:28 PM Flag
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So a broker gets paid 3% for reading through a public list of apartments for sale and driving their clients from open house to open house? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:32 PM Flag
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No. Your broker doesn't even drive you to open houses. Sometimes you meet them their for appointments, sometimes you go alone and mention your broker on the sign in sheet, and sometimes they go to open houses with you. But you are on your own for transportation. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:35 PM Flag
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the NYT site doesn't just list open houses. It lists apartments for sale via private showings. Most of the ads for apts are placed by listing brokers so a buyer can just call the listing broker directly if they want to. In manhattan it seems pretty easy to go without either a seller's broker (if you have the time to show your place yourself) or a buyer's broker (if you can surf the NYT site a couple times a week) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:38 PM Flag
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no, you have to take the subway yourself. No broker is going to drive you around manhattan! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:46 PM Flag
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So what does the buyers broker do for you? And why should someone make a commitment to one? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:50 PM Flag
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they arrange for you to see the apartment. I've never heard of someone making a commitment to one in NYC. You walk into Corcoran's office, tell them you want a 2 bdrm, they show you some of the listings they have. If they are really working for you they may call their friend at halstead and show you one of their listings but then you could go to the prudential web site and see a place you like that the corcoran person didn't/wouldn't tell you about....bizarre. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:55 PM Flag
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Why can't you call the listing broker yourself to see the apartment? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:56 PM Flag
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you can do that...that is what we did (we didn't have a broker as a buyer) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:03 PM Flag
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Brokers tend to focus on the properties that their firms are selling first (highest revenue for their firm). Then they look at competing firms listings. But there is no MLS like you see elsewhere. Brokers don't have access to "better" information about availability than anyone else. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:30 PM Flag
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OP: exactly, it's the lack of an MLS in NYC that drove me to FSBO it in the 1st place. Although I noticed in this sundays NYT their was an article about FSBOs and it mentioned a web site to advertise FSBOs where you could pay extra to have your property added to your local MLS....but that doesn't apply to NYC [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:27 PM Flag
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huh, I had no idea that there was any place that didn't have it. Honestly, that makes me think that FSBO might be real tough. The people that showed up to your open house were most likely trying to get you as a client, I doubt that they were really interested in marketing to others, they were just hoping to make a good impression on you. It doesn't matter whether it is fair or not, agents have no incentive to do anything that seems like it may be more work, they are a fairly lazy bunch. Where there is mls, the agents don't have any control over what the client sees, so the client picks out the houses they are interested in, not the agents. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:35 PM Flag
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Same thing in NYC. Only instead of going to one site, apartment hunters look in the NYT and on the sites of the various brokerages. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:37 PM Flag
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then wouldn't it be easier to discriminate against FSBO than in other areas? Agents are really opposed to them, so can't they just ignore you? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:40 PM Flag
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Of course they can. But the market is pretty efficient and buyers find the FSBO's because they tend to be a bit cheaper (offset by lower fees). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:44 PM Flag
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OP: Of course they can ignore me...but my original question though is why would they? Just based on principle alone? If I work for X my client likes an apt listed by firm Y and buys it, I'm getting 3%. If firm Y is instead a FSBO and I still get 3% why would I pass that up? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:49 PM Flag
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are there a lot of buyers out there that are going it without an agent? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:36 PM Flag
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Most buyers don't have an agent. Either the buyer is unrepresented and the seller's broker keeps 6%, or the buyer's lawyer acts as the broker (if so licensed, and most are). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:39 PM Flag
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so if a buyer goes to a broker sponsered open house that he saw in the Times and doesn't have a broker, his lawyer, if a licensed RE broker can lay claim to a share of the selling brokers commission?? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:45 PM Flag
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Only if the seller's broker agrees to it. Which they generally do. In NYC, lawyers do most of the work for a transaction. Contracts, reviewing the buildings financials, the board packages, the share agreements, the subrogation agreements, etc. Brokers know that hostility with the lawyers isn't helpful. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:49 PM Flag
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I have to laugh at board packet...that is the biggest PITA for the buyer more than anyone, having to gather up all that financial info...then the broker puts it in a binder and takes credit for 'assembling' the board packet [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:52 PM Flag
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That is laughable. When I asked my broker about her document retention/security procedures, she looked at me like a deer in the headlights. So I had my attorney handle it AND collect the packages from the board when the process was over. Last thing I needed was someone tossing their package in the trash. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:55 PM Flag
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that was really smart of you. I had board packets in my apt from other sales that I didn't know what to do with but knew better to throw them in the trash. I finally called the person it belonged to and gave it back to them (because my shredder only shreds 1 page at a time) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:58 PM Flag
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Can you imagine what would happen in my social security number, bank statements, brokerage statements, loan statements, pay stubs, etc were all lost TOGETHER? Identity thief's dream. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:00 PM Flag
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OK, right now I'm picturing the homeless person on our block who wears a winter coat and ski pants under black garbage bags tied with twine talking in your voice in one of those identity theft commercials [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:06 PM Flag
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I don't know...we didn't use one when we bought our place. We just spent any weekend we had free for the better part of 2 years going to open houses from the Times. Granted we weren't in a hurry....and when we went to brokers way back then and said we wanted a 3 bdrm for under $750K they all said it was impossible and wouldn't work with us (yet that is what we bought - and for a lot less) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:42 PM Flag
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Why would anyone use a broker in such a system? It doesn't sound like they do anything really and in NYC you are talking huge commissions... I now know way more than I probably needed about the system, I really hope dh never seriously gets it into his head to move back;) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:45 PM Flag
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As above, the lawyers are essential. The brokers can be helpful, but aren't required. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:51 PM Flag
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honestly, at 3-6% of sale of the apt., that's just insane. I have no idea how much op is selling for, but assuming low end (b/c I hate math) house goes for 1 million, she pays $30,000, for what? I think that I need to move to NYC and become a broker... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:56 PM Flag
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OP: well, if you want to, I'll offer you the same 3% if you find my buyer - that's about 45K in your pocket ;) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:02 PM Flag
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hahaha, my sister is thinking about buying next year, maybe I should convince her to do it this year instead;) Good luck to you! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:04 PM Flag
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Yes. They dragged their clients from Connecticut to see her apartment in NYC. Stick to the markets you know. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:18 PM Flag
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Why are you so worried? It sounds like you have a plan why are you asking again? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:06 PM Flag
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My suggestion is to set a deadline for yourself. If you haven't gotten any offer in 3 or 6 months (depending on what the market is like in your neighborhood), then you will think about getting an agent. Many agents will be nice to you, hoping if they seem helpful and friendly, they will get the listing if you decide that FSBO isn't working for you. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:08 PM Flag
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Nothing like a house with 130 days on market to really get the interest flowing. That is the death knell in our town. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:10 PM Flag
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I know a bunch of people that wait too long. Make sure you are priced right, it is harder to get up to date comps without an agent, but I gather NYC real estate market isn't falling like most of the country, so this isn't as big of a deal. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:16 PM Flag
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What is your town? In NYC, that's nothing. You can't close until the co-op board approves (easily a 90+ day process, longer in the summer) and it is not at all uncommon for one or more buyers to be rejected. In fact, the more desirable the building, the more likely the apartment will sit on the market. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:20 PM Flag
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Things in the DC 'burbs are starting to tank. My friend bought last may and has lost 25% of the value of her house. I said if she didn't get any offers within a certain period of time to think about getting an agent, that time frame is area specific, but even if it takes a long time to close, she would still know if she was getting real interest as a FSBO. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:26 PM Flag
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But OP is in NYC. You can't compare across markets. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:33 PM Flag
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I know I can't, but certain things are just common sense, i.e. if you don't get an offer in 9 months, you have a problem. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:37 PM Flag
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Are we talking offer or are we talking time on the market? It it is time on the market, NY has totally different standards than the rest of the country. You can't have a coop on the market for 30 days. It just isn't possible to get a contract signed, a package together, and board approval that fast. And boards don't approve every applicant. So long time on market metrics don't say much about the marketing strategy. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:41 PM Flag
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so do most people get an offer within 30 days? Why can't you have it on for longer? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:48 PM Flag
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I meant you can't have a co-op on the market for only 30 days. A fast transaction will take at least 90 days. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:53 PM Flag
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oh, I was starting to get extremely confused as to how they even knew, etc. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:59 PM Flag
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Pretty easy to back out how long an apartment has been on the market. Harder to determine how many times it has been in contract. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:02 PM Flag
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As I said multiple times, offer, not the process of going through closing... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:50 PM Flag
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No one will ever know when you got an offer. All they will know is the total time on the market. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:52 PM Flag
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How was the turn out of Buyers? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:11 PM Flag
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I think we had about 5 buyers and 8 brokers show up. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:18 PM Flag
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5 buyers on a beautiful beach day is a good turnout. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:21 PM Flag
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didn't the forecast call for t-storms? Anyway, I don't think any of them were interested, which is why I think we need a broker to bring us a buyer...the broker can sort of 'pre-screen' people to make sure they are 'right' for the apartment. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:25 PM Flag
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T-storms for the late afternoon. No one was rushing home today because of the weather. You can hire a broker if you want to. But don't expect much pre-screening. A broker will help potential buyers understand the apartment and the building. But they don't do much to control who shows up for an open house or an appointment. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 07:28 PM Flag
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I feel like I've just watched a soap opera. This has to be the most twisted way to sell anything that I've ever seen. It almost sounds like buying a house in a third world country. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:01 PM Flag
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Did anyone explain subrogation to you yet? That's where it gets REALLY crazy. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:03 PM Flag
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oh please do... I am enjoying my laugh so much.... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:05 PM Flag
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At least now I understand why you all ripped that agent from last night a new one... I thought that you were being mean, but I doubt she knew any of this stuff. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:07 PM Flag
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She was trying apply her knowledge of very specific, local real estate market to NYC. And she looked foolish. We weren't being mean. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:10 PM Flag
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^^^ But you can't download these agreements from "realestatecontracts.com" and expect your broker to fill them out for you! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:14 PM Flag
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Hey! We made it to the top of the 'most popular topics list'...which means...I've been on waaaay too long! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:14 PM Flag
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OK. When you buy in a co-op, you don't buy the apartment. You buy shares in the corporation that owns the building. If you need a mortgage, the loan is for the shares, not the actual apartment. Follow? OK. Now the co-op maintains the first right to the shares in case you default on your common charges. But no one will write you a mortgage unless they have collateral. So you need the coop board and the mortgage company to enter into a subrogation agreement that maintains the coops rights and gives the mortgage company some rights as well. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:08 PM Flag
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I'm listening too! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.22.08, 08:08 PM Flag
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