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06.19.08, 14:18 PM New York City
64 replies
I wish someone would file a discrimination suit against the DOE/NYC on behalf of boys with respect to the G&T program and the testing. Boys are known to generally develop later than girls. Making 4 yos take a standardized test for admission into the G&T program discrminates against boys. One could argue that boys could retest when they're older, but then admission to the G&T program would be based on spots opening up. Any moms out there whose ds bombed the test? What do you say? [ Reply | Watch | Flag ]
New York City 06.19.08, 02:18 PM Flag
 

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I have heard that girls score better, but in our preK, more boys made the cut-off and scored higher than the girls. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:20 PM Flag
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Yes, there are exceptions (your pre-K), but generally girls do score better. I would love to see the break-down of girls vs. boys who qualified for G&T and the citywides. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:22 PM Flag
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I have heard it was younger girls, which tended to be the case in our pre-K. Who really knows. This test is such cr*p and so unevenly administered it would be difficult to figure out what factors most negatively affected dc. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 08:09 PM Flag
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I am sure it is coming, and will be thrown out as are the minority lawsuits. There is no good way to do this at all. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:20 PM Flag
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my minority boy got a 99, fwiw [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 07:41 PM Flag
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When is his b'day. I think thats' the point she's making. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 06:16 AM Flag
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np: the test is normed for birthdays. His birthday is inconsequential. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 06:22 AM Flag
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^^^np again: to be precise, it is normed for age -- not actually birthdays. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 06:23 AM Flag
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Actually the way OLSAT is now it seems to favor younger kids. But we shall see, it's all just speculation at this point. Schools with onsites used to aim for birthday spread throughout the year but that is obviously no longer possible. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 06:56 AM Flag
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I would argue that the population is too small for that to be a reasonable goal anyway. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 07:52 AM Flag
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in the spring [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 06:06 PM Flag
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so are you suggesting the doe does away with g&t altogether, or simply adds sword-fighting and wrestling to the test? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:21 PM Flag
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I want them to test the kids later when development evens out. Or if they want to continue starting G&T in K, devise another way to evaluate kids for G&T or gender balance. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:23 PM Flag
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If you gender balance, should you not balance also based on race and ethnicity, and age and whatever else people think of? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:25 PM Flag
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yes, I know it's a slippery slope, but it seems to me that the DOE has to devise a better plan than the current one which favors white UMC girls. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:26 PM Flag
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Yes but then you really need to introduce other variables, not just gender. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 05:16 PM Flag
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I am naive here -- when does the development even out? Seems like the inherent problem is GT is not in every school, so if you were to test laster you'd have to switch schools. I think every should have GT as needed -- like in the burbs! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:42 PM Flag
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YES YES YES [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 06:28 AM Flag
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np: funny. don't have school aged child yet, so not aware of what's on the tests, but isn't there a way in which to test the kids by seeing how they play? How they use their imaginations, talk to themselves, create, etc? (or is that done already?) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:23 PM Flag
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last year, they had a separate component (besides the OLSAT) where the preschool teacher provided his/her evaluation of the child. They eliminated that this year. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:25 PM Flag
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nnp: you could norm the boys and girls scores seperately. This would not be a hard piece of math for the folks who publish the OLSAT. It would just mean they would need to test more kids to establish the scores. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 06:33 AM Flag
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Actually, when they used the Stanford-Binet, which is an actual intelligence test (which they did in District 3 before last year), they had equal numbers of boys and girls. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:22 PM Flag
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But I heard that Hunter had way more girls than boys this year (2/3 vs. 1/3). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:23 PM Flag
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np: I've also heard that historically more girls qualify than boys for Hunter [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:24 PM Flag
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They always have more girls at the onsite, but it is more likel 60:40, or was when we applied 3 years ago. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:26 PM Flag
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I don't think this is true. Hunter and Anderson have consistently had more girls than boys at their onsites, and it was the same at our D2 G&T onsite years ago. The difference was that the schools all selected dc to balance for gender. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:25 PM Flag
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This is definitely not true, Hunter always has more girls and it was even discussed during the DOA Q&A when dc was there for onsite. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:27 PM Flag
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Why don't we wait for the fall and report back how many girls and how many boys are in your DC's class? Or aer we going to discuss this to death over the summer now? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:26 PM Flag
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I would love for someone to file suit now -- it won't be resolved immediately, but perhaps it will spur the DOE to do something different for next year's admissions season -- just in time for my ds ;) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:28 PM Flag
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The interesting thing is that the gender gap (similar to the race gap) is not evening itself out as the kids get older. Now women outnumber men at universities and there are all sorts of studies showing that boys are not doing as well academically. Of course, it is cultural more than biological, but it also speaks to what I posted earlier about teaching models and how school's structure in general is more geared towards girls' learning styles than boys'. I used to think same-sex education was mainly beneficial to girls, but now I believe it could really help boys. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:29 PM Flag
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ITA re SS education -- think it's especially beneficial to boys in elementary and girls in MS and US -- which would be impossible to pull off system-wide. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:31 PM Flag
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ITA with you. There were lots of articles a while ago about how boys are in trouble in schools and some people were talking about doing something about it, but I haven't seen any significant changes. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:33 PM Flag
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The funny thing is that even if girls do better in schools boys/men still do way better in the workplace. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 05:15 PM Flag
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I know, and I think why the issue of the educational structure is not taken more seriously. Much more energy is/has been spent on helping women achieve their potential because of that. It has been successful, but what makes men perform better in the workplace is in part based upon the fact that they have been there longer and therefore can help each other out, the fact that women are more likely than men to choose to take time out to care for their families, and also the way that women behave toward one another. Just look at the way women attack each other here. I have experienced more harshness backstabbing from women than ever from men in the workplace. (My experience, of course, not everyone else's.) Also, women still have to overcome the perception that men do better in the workplace. I believe Hillary and Condoleeza and even Oprah and other high profile women are beating down these barriers everyday and that this will soon change. When it does though, I wonder if the inequality in gender performance in school will shift in the workplace as well... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 07:37 PM Flag
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i think race and socioeconomics are more an issue and creating more have/have nots than gender [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:37 PM Flag
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I guess we beat the odds then. Dc is African American, SB 150, GT 99 and we have Medicaid and food stamps. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.14.15, 07:25 PM Flag
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Why? If boys develop later, then they aren't up to speed with girls at age 5, so why should they be in the same class? It's simply discriminatory to say that smart girls RIGHT NOW lose a spot because a boy MIGHT develop later and get a higher score in a few years. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:37 PM Flag
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that is why testing at 4-5 is nuts and should be done in 3rd grade like most other places [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:44 PM Flag
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Most places aren't concerned about the middle and upper middle class leaving en masse. In NYC it's a major concern, so the G&T program is really a middle class retention program, not necessarily the best educational policy. If all parents who couldn't/didn't send their DCs to private school for K had to send their DCs to their zoned public there would be a mass exodus from NYC. That would be a disaster on many, many levels. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:49 PM Flag
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don't think that would necessarily happen, and having a lot of whiny entitled mc and umc families leave isn't the worst thing in the world. city should spend resources on beefing up k-3 for all kids, then testing them when have a fairer baseline for everyone [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:51 PM Flag
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Thank You! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:52 PM Flag
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where's the money going to come from if the middle and upper middle classes and their income tax base leave? and it's happened before - it's what happened to Detroit (and the wealthy families followed soon after) and started happening in NYC in the 1970s. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 03:30 PM Flag
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you mean the city and not the school, right? because even if their kids are not in the schools, they still have to pay the school taxes, don't they? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 03:37 PM Flag
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they will leave the City (and take the tax revenue with them). If they can't get their DCs into private schools (and there aren't enough seats for all of them) and have to go to the zoned schools for K-3 they will decamp for the suburbs. if they can find a place in the zones for PS6 (which will only get more expensive) they will stay, but they will not stay for a placement in a PS84. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 03:51 PM Flag
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How can they stay in the city? There is no more room in private schools. They will go to the burbs. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 05:21 PM Flag
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NP: ctually, if you know your history, you'll find out that G&T programs were not specifically a m/c retention program. They were an integration program to bring white kids into the public school system because they had fled. That's what the Federal seed money for all of these "magnet" programs came from - to offset Title I funds for poverty, which typically funded schools with large populations of children of color (which meant poor in NYC in the 70's and 80's) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 05:32 AM Flag
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I think all developmental psychologists would agree that there is a gender-gap at this age. I am not a lawyer, so I also wonder like the OP to what extent these theories and evidence could be used in a court to challenge the DOE? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:44 PM Flag
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But if there is a gender gap at this age, then they should allow kids to be tested later. They can't just let in boys with lower scores. How will they know which ones will later get higher scores? There might be a case for guaranteed placement every year through grade 3 or something, but not for allowing in lower-scoring boys. Then the girls parents would sue, rightfully so, for being locked out on the off chance that one of those boys will eventually reach their current score. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:46 PM Flag
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How about giving an equal number of slots to girls and boys? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:49 PM Flag
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Np. This would mean that girls with high scores will be pushed away for boys with those same scores. How to do choose? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.14.15, 07:27 PM Flag
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My DS did well, but I know many other boys who are just as bright as my son that bombed. My DS is more compliant and not as willing to take the risks that many of the other boys do. Think that a 45 min test at 4yo was really difficult for these boys. But these boys are definitely children you want in a G&T. They add aggression and risk-taking into the classroom which is so important in education and later in research and business. There should be a to balance these classes accordingly. They don't need to be absolutely equal, but they need to not be 2:1. Onsites (like Hunter, hire an outside company) or teacher evaluations need to come into play. Think both of these would also help the lower class kids that haven't had the opportunity of a $20,000/yr preschool. They're all really bright, but G&Ts shouldn't be all about educating a bunch of kids that can "sit-down-and-shut-up," which by going only by teachable test scores does. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 02:52 PM Flag
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What I've never understood is that if the distribution of scores for girls and boys really were significantly different, the test publishers would have to create separate normative groups based on gender. But they don't. Which leads me to believe that boys and girls don't really score differently on these tests. I've posted this before on UB, and I'll say it again: I want the DOE and Hunter to release the numbers on how many girls vs. boys apply in the first place. I'm willing to bet the initial applicant pool is skewed toward girls, and that accounts for most of the skew in the final group of dc who make the cutoff. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 03:52 PM Flag
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I doubt that more girls apply. If I remember back 20yrs to college, it was pretty standard throughout certain age brackets for boys and girls to score differently. The difference in numbers was pretty standard (think it was for the SB). If there's a ed. psych around, they'd be able to confirm this. Think Hunter puts one basic cutoff and does 2nd rounds because of this difference. DOE doesn't acknowledge. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 04:07 PM Flag
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I'm looking at Patricia A. Alexander's and Philip H. Winne's Handbook of Educational Psychology, which specifically discusses the fact that modern IQ tests like the Wechsler and Stanford-Binet have been developed so that boys' and girls' full scale IQ scores don't differ significantly. There are gender differences for some subtests, but the ones where girls are favored get canceled out by the ones where the boys are favored, so overall it's a wash. I'm also looking at the abstract for a study on dc applying to G&T programs that found full scale IQ scores don't differ along gender lines: http://tinyurl.com/3zml57 The population of dc in that study is older than the 4 yos getting tested in NYC, but if you could find a study for that age group I'm certain you'd see the same thing because the tests have been developed that way on purpose. And I can easily believe the applicant pool is skewed. Girls tend to have earlier expressive language development than boys, and I think parents are more likely to perceive chatty little girls as gifted so they're more likely to apply. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 10:32 PM Flag
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^^^ for that age group you'd see the same thing, because the tests have been deliberately developed that way. And I can easily believe the applicant pool is skewed. Girls' expressive language tends to develop earlier than boys', and I think parents are more likely to perceive their chatty little girls as gifted and apply to G&T. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 10:37 PM Flag
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So by the same argument, I was discriminated against when taking the PSAT, SAT, and Achievement Tests. I attended an underperforming HS, and like many of my (economically disadvantaged) peers, didn't develop academically until college. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 04:09 PM Flag
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I went to a very underperforming HS and was a National Merit Scholar with nearly 1600 SATs. Just saying... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 07:39 PM Flag
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lawyer here. you don't have a case because the tests are not the sole determining factor: the classes in fact ARE balanced for gender. it's like black ppl suing because their scores are inferior to whites, or whites because their scores are inferior to asians, etc. (these are facts about the iq tests). It doesn't matter that the "score" is worse or better. What matters is what is the result. And if Hunter continues to balance their class 50/50, then boys per se are not being discriminated against. My gripe is that the December boys are. But that's with Hunter. And I don't really care because I've already decided to hold my son back a year and go private and forget the hunter thing. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 06:43 PM Flag
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...at least Hunter is . I don't know about the rest of g&t. If the classes are lopsided favoring girls, consistently, then I think you do have a case and you should take it to con law organization looking for publicity. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.19.08, 06:45 PM Flag
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Anderson is not gender balanced. Someone posted yesterday that the class is 36 girls, 14 boys. The same probably holds true for the district G&Ts, but have not seen data. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 06:25 AM Flag
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lawyer here again (who isn't practicing, obviously!) actually, i don't think you can cry 'discrimination' if you're male, cause i think you need to be a 'protected' class under the constitution, blah blah, and that would be so called 'minorities', women, etc. NOT WHITE BOYS. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 06:05 PM Flag
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This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 07:03 AM Flag
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when Anderson did "onsites" the classes were gender balanced. Since the DOE has "messed" with admissions (last year) the classes are NO LONGER gender balanced. The DOE isselected all students. You should look at Lower Lab. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.20.08, 05:30 PM Flag
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Really? Dc had 2 questions wrong on the entire test, 99. He was totally fine taking this test so he is obviously a good candidate for GT [ Reply | More
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General Topics 01.14.15, 07:23 PM Flag
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