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06.17.08, 07:41 AM NY Schools
100 replies
Why should G & T kids get a shot at a good program, while others in crap zoned schools are just SOL? Why does being smarter (or doing better on one test) mean you deserve a better education? And, yes, of course, I am very, very bitter. And when I dd does get in somewhere we aren't going to be notified by courier. [ Reply | Watch | Flag ]
NY Schools 06.17.08, 07:41 AM Flag
 

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I would be bitter, too. Actually, I would move to the burbs. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 07:45 AM Flag
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99's mom, and i agree with you 100%. It is unfair. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 07:45 AM Flag
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ditto and i agree with you. my dh was just going on this morning about, why not make the standards higher and we won't have this problem! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 07:59 AM Flag
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np. Unless they bring back tracking, they CAN'T make the standards higher for general eds. No one wants to acknowledge it, but there are just as many below-average dc as there are above-average dc. And the below-average dc can barely keep up, or can't keep up at all, with the program as it exists now. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:30 AM Flag
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np: Why is tracking such a terrible thing? In DS's class they use letters to show what reading group kids are in (this is 1st grade in Brooklyn). The kids absolutely know which kids are the good readers and are ahead, no matter if the school is trying to hide this information "for their own good." [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:53 AM Flag
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I don't think it's a terrible thing, but it's not considered PC these days; it's even more controversial than G&T. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:10 AM Flag
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I really think it is hurting kids at all levels to ignore that there are differences in both intelligence and the age at which different children learn things [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:14 AM Flag
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ITTTA, but I think we'll have to wait several more years for the pendulum to swing back in favor of tracking. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:50 AM Flag
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Some schools do. They call it "compacting" and they do it by subject. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 06:08 PM Flag
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Actually the main issue is the value that parents put in education regardless of their dc [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 05:34 PM Flag
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^^^^'s relative intelligence [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 05:35 PM Flag
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Sorry, no, that's not the main issue. Parental involvement can lift a dc up to fulfill his or her potential, but there's still the unpleasant reality that not all dc have the same potential. Even in an ideal world where every parent supported every dc's education 100%, there would still be a wide range of innate ability. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 06:57 PM Flag
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Of course they can. There are many great gen ed public schools in NYC where average, below-average and above-average kids all thrive. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.18.08, 05:05 AM Flag
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Which general eds are these? The test scores and graduation rates don't bear out your claim. I suspect the "great" general eds you're thinking of are schools with mostly affluent populations where few of the dc are actually average, let alone below-average. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.18.08, 08:45 AM Flag
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Any why the f*** do G & T kids get buses, while my dd if she is lucky and gets in to our 5th choice public school will have to take 2 city buses? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 07:45 AM Flag
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why do you think they get buses? it's a school policy, not g7t [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:22 AM Flag
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G & T kids get buses, but not necesarily out of zone Gen Ed kids. That is seen as a choice. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:27 AM Flag
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You are not correct. The rules at district schools are the same for all children. It is only citywide schools (Anderson, NEST and TAG) that provide busing up to 5 miles away. If you got into another gen ed program through the lottery you do not get bussing if you live out of district. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.18.08, 05:04 AM Flag
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at which schools? I have never heard about that policy [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:28 AM Flag
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Examples, from my experience: At PS 282, there is on G & T kid out of zone who gets his own bus. At PS 10 Gen Ed, you need 11 kids out of zone to get a bus. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:15 AM Flag
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NCLB kids get buses by virtue of living in a neighborhood with a crappy school. Sometimes these kids are given a bus to another borough with just one other child! Kids at both ends of the spectrum get some perks to make their educational life happen. I don't begrudge it, but remedial learners get 3X-5X the funding of a G&T student. Know your facts before you get all up in arms about a $5 delivery fee. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:22 PM Flag
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How about kids attending private schools? They get free yellow buses within their borough within 5 miles. Why not get upset about how that drains the DOE's budget? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:23 PM Flag
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The thing that makes crappy zoned schools good neighborhood schools is involved parents. Anybody who expects otherwise is bound to be disappointed. So, get involved. Contribute to the PTA, volunteer at your school, cajole your neighbors/other parents to do the same. None of this is rocket science. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 07:45 AM Flag
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as a mom of a non g&t kid (fwiw), I agree with this. you have to take responsibility and quit blaming. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 07:51 AM Flag
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np: and by the time her dc has moved on to middle school, the school may have improved somewhat. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 07:57 AM Flag
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OP: thank you! I am happy to be involved in my child's school & intend to be, but I work full-time & have 3 kids AND I don't want to sacrifice my kids to the cause of turning the school around. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:26 AM Flag
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Is moving to a better zone a possibility? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:32 AM Flag
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Who should turn around the schools then? I mean it is easy to say the DOE but lets be realistic... that is not going to happen on its own. This is why a home/apt in some areas costs so much more than in other areas. If you want good local schools there are only two ways to get them, pay into your neighbors' prior efforts or be the instrument of change. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:38 AM Flag
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I don't mean this as an attack so much as an exchange... I honestly wonder about this. I live in one of those neighborhoods which is split and the local zoned school could be good but nobody will get involved. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:41 AM Flag
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Ditto. In our neighborhood there are always the handful of parents with that plan that we should all register for the local school and make it good. When time comes to actually do something they already fled and registered their kids somewhere else (or went private). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:13 AM Flag
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OP: Nobody wants to be FIRST. Next yr when kids can't get variances they will be forced & then all will go to said crappy school & all will be happy. My dd is older than that though... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:16 AM Flag
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Schools are public good. It is as much your responsible as it is the government's to make a school a better place. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:12 AM Flag
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Would you say that about the Police or Fire Dept? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:47 AM Flag
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Aren't there studies showing that richer neighborhoods get better service than poorer ones? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:56 AM Flag
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np (and OR) I would. You may not have a legal obligation to report crimes, call in fires, etc. But yeah you have a moral obligation to help your fellow human being. I live in Brownstone Brooklyn. I check on my elderly neighbors when it is really hot. I shovel their sidewalk when it snows and I shovel out the hydrant after the plow covers it. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:56 AM Flag
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of course. the police and the fire department do a much better job in neighborhoods that actually care. people also look out for each other and therefore reduce the load on those departments. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:12 AM Flag
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The G&Ts have become the "good" schools because parents of kids that attended when the programs were started (and then some) sacrificed their kids to the cause of turning the school around. No program starts off good. It takes hard work, mostly on the backs of parents of those first 5-7 years with tons of fundraising that usually doesn't benefit their kids so much as it's the investment in the future. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:25 PM Flag
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I can understand how you feel. Please don't take this the wrong way...but if you can try to let the bitterness go (at least a little bit), you won't be jeopardizing your well being and you'll be able to focus more on getting your dc into a school that will give them the education they deserve. What school district are you in? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 07:46 AM Flag
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D 13 [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:26 AM Flag
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Agree that more resources should be put into special education and the public schools in poor neighborhoods. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 07:50 AM Flag
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In the 2003-04 budget, DOE per pupil spending for gen ed students (including those at G&Ts) was roughly $10,500 and for special ed students it was over $34,000. I think that's a big disparity. As for poorer schools, they do get extra funding - Title 1 federal money [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:50 AM Flag
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The issue though, is whether they give ENOUGH for special ed and poor communities. I don't think they do. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:04 AM Flag
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How much is enough though? And there's only a finite amount of money. How much more do you want the DOE to take away from the middle class gen ed and G&T schools? They've already done that with current budget cuts - it came out of Bronx Sci & Stuy & other high-achieving schools. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:07 AM Flag
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all the money in the world will not solve the problem of underperforming schools in poor neighborhoods, until there is a cultural shift. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:10 AM Flag
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but you can't say that on a non-anonymous board. -np [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:00 AM Flag
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DING DING DING - We have a winner....unfortunately. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 07:09 PM Flag
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It's not a cultural shift that is needed, but a social one. Poorer people in this country have problems that cannot be solved by schools, although schools may provide the most hope for their children. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.18.08, 04:58 AM Flag
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What are you saying here? There are poor people around this city from cultures which respect and encourage education. Give them one or two generations and they are living the middle class dream. They are not behind the poor performance at low SES schools. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.18.08, 08:55 AM Flag
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G & T kids don't need as many teachers as SN or kids with discipline, etc. issues. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:13 AM Flag
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That's not my point. I'm not begrudging SN money. I'm just saying that the SN kids get 3 times as much money as gen ed kids - how many more resources should the SN kids be given? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:15 AM Flag
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don't you understand that per-pupil expenditure is just as high as it is in many pricey suburbs with great schools? it's not $ that is lacking in underperforming city schools--it's families concerned about and willing to spend time on education at home/valuing education and standards. families like OP can get involved all they want, but until they are a critical mass that outweigh those who don't give a rats ass, schools will suffer. Sorry if I sound like Bill Cosby, but it's true. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:03 AM Flag
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Absolutely. And that's why the schools in Chinatown - a poor community - do so well in terms of academics. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:13 AM Flag
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np. This is so right on and I have said the same thing on UB before and been flamed. People just don't want to admit certain truths. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:52 AM Flag
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Per child expenditure in suburbs with good schools is twice that of NYC. That's what the high property taxes are paying for. (np) [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:01 PM Flag
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There are also crappy G&T schools, in poorer neighborhoods, just like the crappy zoned schools. It's all about $$$ and involved parents. But there are good unzoned schools (in D2 and D3) that a dc has a shot at, regardless of test scores. Also D3 has lotteries. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:45 AM Flag
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OP: Sounds like things are much better in Manhattan. We are in Brooklyn. We need lotteries here. Baby boom is really affecting scene this yr. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:12 AM Flag
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can you move to a good zone in Bklyn? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:17 AM Flag
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we entered the D3 lottery, applied to unzoned schools and got nothing. Still don't know where dc will go to kindergarten next year. I'm with you 100%, op [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:05 AM Flag
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ITA! And for what it's worth, I don't think you are being bitter, but are just seeing a gross injustice taking place. Every child should be entitled to the best education, not just the smart or priledged ones. What goes on in New York Public Schools is an outrage. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:02 AM Flag
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So what do you propose? The poorer schools are getting more money that the wealthier schools right now, and have been for a while. What can be done? Make the entire DOE system a lottery? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:11 AM Flag
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that is the case in San Francisco city, and it's why most educated people with children flee once their kids are of school age (if they can't afford private). [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:13 AM Flag
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Exactly. That's just ridiculous, esp in a city the size of NYC. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:16 AM Flag
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YES! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:50 AM Flag
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the problem is that NYC is such a diverse environment, in which it is very hard to select for strong educational commitment. Money is somewhat of a predictor, as are high scores, but both are imperfect measures. If you don't have money to live in a good zone, and your kid doesn't score high enough (or even, sometimes if they do), you are at a huge disadvantage. There are some affordable/moderate income nabes (usually dominated by new immigrants) with good scoring schools, but not many. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:12 AM Flag
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You can tell that NYC is diverse and different just from this thread. OP is in Brooklyn which has a totally different situation from Manhattan. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:17 AM Flag
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Brooklyn situation versus Manhattan situation are not totally different. They are just as different as Manhattan versus Manhattan. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:04 AM Flag
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what do you propose? Separate the kids and run into the danger to end up with an all white class and an all black class (I am generalizing but chances that it will end up close to that are pretty high)? The thing is that neighborhood schools MUST accept every single child that lives in the zone. It is almost impossible to provide a decent education to every single kid. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:16 AM Flag
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move to chinatown, or ridgewood queens (or forest hills, etc.), or bayridge brooklyn, or parts of staten island--moderate cost of living and solid school scores. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:18 AM Flag
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have you seen the prices of condos in Bayridge lately? Not exactly cheap. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:53 AM Flag
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I live near Chinatown. Scores might be better but there are other drawbacks to being in a predominantly Asian school (which schools in Chinatown are) if you are not Asian, just as there would be if you were the racial minority in any school. Just sayin'. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 12:10 PM Flag
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in distict 3 a school like ps 199's pta can raise $500,000+ while the pta at ps 165 raises only arond $5000. Yet, both schools with diversely different populations are judged on the same criteria. ps 165 is dommed to always be a disadvantaged school as long as we have a regressive form of tax that funds extras in afluent schools and leave the poorer schools behind and then judges them using the same scale. That is what is an outrage! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:48 AM Flag
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np - Please explain the "regressive form of tax" that gives money to affluent schools. Are you just talking about wealthier parents? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:53 AM Flag
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Yes, wealthy parent who can make contributions to PTA that can then in turn put the money back into their child's school with provides, teaching assistants, enrichment and the things that the poor schools can't do for kids who don't even have an opportunity for some of these things. The system is stacked for the more afluent and against the low income. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:56 AM Flag
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So....what? I don't get your point. Yes, it's unfair. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:04 AM Flag
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Umm.. maybe these are some of the reasons why the original poster sounds bitter! Just because a child doesn't get a high score or the luck of the draw, he or she is doomed to the world of the underclass. Yes, life is unfair, but should it really be this way. As we sit here day after day, spliting hairs about OSLAT scores and ranking schools, so someone child doesn't have to go to the "BAD" school, why do we not take those resources and put it into making each school the best it can be. Yes some schools like ps 165 may need extra to achieve that and that should be ok, because those kids have less. We have sunk to a new LOW when the DOE spends $5 a shot to couriers G & T letters, but takes away money from the budgets of schools in need!!!! [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:09 AM Flag
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I'm with you on the courier issue. -np [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:11 AM Flag
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OP: ITA, That is exactly why I posted today. Hearing about all the G & T ins and outs & couriers and all & my best bet is that I will nab a spot when school starts & some kid doesn't show. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:37 AM Flag
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money is not going to solve the problems of schools like 165 (or 242, where i live). It's just not. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 05:19 PM Flag
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ITA. Does the poster above just not understand that? And re the courier - we're talking about $15K. That's all. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 05:27 PM Flag
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I don't think this is a gross injustice - all NYC kids were eligible to take the G&T test - it was free and given all over the city. What's screwed up is that luck would determine whether one 99% scorer would get into their first choice or not -- all of these children are bright (what nonsense to claim that this year's class in Anderson would not be as bright as last year's...) There were only about 200 spaces in the citywide and about 1000 eligible kids. Harvard and Yale only accept about 10% of applicants, too. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:44 AM Flag
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(con'td) I also think that the children scoring well are not necessarily children of privilege, but children of parents who read to them, talk to them, etc. Parents who value education are more likely to pass on a love of learning to their children, regardless of their income bracket... [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:47 AM Flag
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OP: Hey there, my post was not about parsing the 99s & who should or shouldn't get into A, but about the lack of attention to NON-G & T kids. You 99s will all be at a great school. And, while my just 4 y.o. DD didn't finish the test so tanked, she, too, has parents who read to her, talk to her, etc. She has parents who value education are trying to pass on a love of learning to their children. we both went to Ivy League colleges & I went to privates schools that my parents sacrificed to pay for. So bugger off & please remember that this is the NY Schools board, not the G & T 99s Board. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 12:10 PM Flag
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You rock. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 06:11 PM Flag
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Harvard and Yale poster: You are phenomenally provincial. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 12:11 PM Flag
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Perhaps. But my point was that the system is screwed up, not a gross injustice. The chances of placing into a more competitive program within the public school system was based on merit and certain skills, then luck. That's screwy, but not injust. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 12:22 PM Flag
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er, unjust [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 12:50 PM Flag
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Yes it is. The child can't pick parents, and if s/he has uninvolved parents who will never read to or otherwise engage their kids there is no shot. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 06:20 PM Flag
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Next yr with the DOE's new policies forcing you to go to your own school segregation is going to kick in big time! it is gonna all be about real estate. At least in Brooklyn. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:51 AM Flag
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We need lotteries in Brooklyn. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:52 AM Flag
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You mean like in D3 - lotteries for unzoned schools and for open seats at zoned schools? Or do you mean no zoned schools in Brooklyn at all - everyone gets placed through lottery? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 09:55 AM Flag
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Do you think getting rid of zones would raise the lower performing schools as much as it would kill the higher ones? I doubt it. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:09 AM Flag
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^^^np, btw [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:10 AM Flag
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OP: I think we need more of both kids of lotteries. Should have lotter for open spots & need more district charter/lottery schools. Brooklyn New School & Community Roots are so popular because they are offering what the people want. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 10:33 AM Flag
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I really don't get it. I thought you complained in your original post that there's no alternative but zoned school for NON-G&T kids? What about these 2 schools that you mention? [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 05:37 PM Flag
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This is a powerful argument for getting rid of most G&T programs, especially as they're currently organized. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 07:09 PM Flag
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how in the world do you figure? not all children are being well-served, so penalize the ones that are? can't see the logic. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 07:53 PM Flag
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What is the "powerful argument" exactly? The OP has shown that she actually has non-G&T choices in Brooklyn. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.17.08, 08:01 PM Flag
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How come no one thinks its unfair that special ed kids get to be in a class with two teachers and get all kinds of free services through the school? But everyone complains when kids on the other side of the spectrum get services. I don't get it. I had to pay for 4 year of expensive preschool for my child while one of my very wealthy neighbors got it all for free through the state because her child had a very slight learning disability. While I was always on the verge of my child getting kicked out because or our tuition being late, for 4 years i had to work my butt off to pay that tuition while i watched my neighbor drop her kid off and go to the cafe and drink lattes and then on to pilates. Now that the kids are older, my kid is in city wide G&T while her kid is in not so great general ed. I know it sounds bitchy, and I am opening myself up to all kinds of riducle, but I finally feel like my family is finally getting a break. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.18.08, 08:05 AM Flag
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If your neighbors are wealthy, why don't they send their dc to private school, either a SN one or a non-SN one? And wouldn't you have had to "sacrifice" the way you did regardless of your neighbor's dc? I don't get your post, I guess. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.18.08, 08:20 AM Flag
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Yes, you are right, regardless of their situation mine would have been the same but it did urk me that her kid got everything for free regardless of their ability to pay just because her kid had a minor learning disability. It wouldn't have mattered if she were Donald Trump. She would have still gotten the state to pay for private preschool all the same. I guess the reason they don't send the kid to private school now is because I guess that would mean they would have to get a job becasue that would definitely dip into the trust fund or make it hard to spend all day at pilates and hanging in the cafes drinking lattes. [ Reply | More
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General Topics 06.18.08, 08:49 AM Flag
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